For Database: Vitamin C as potential MM Treatment

Discussion in 'Meniere's Disease "Database"' started by carnyard, Oct 7, 2010.

ATTN: Our forums have moved here! You can still read these forums but if you'd like to participate, mosey on over to the new location.

  1. carnyard

    carnyard New Member


    Personal Experiences

    From Solari (Ray),23421.0.html,24546.0.html

    From Carnyard 9/30/10

    I have had MM symptoms since 2006. My first symptoms were fluctuating hearing loss, tinnitus, and fullness in my left ear. In 2009, I had my first vertigo attack during a business meeting. This was followed by chronic dizziness and nausea. My vertigo attack duration ranged from less than sixty seconds to several hours accompanied by vomiting. Attack frequency between my first attack and prior to starting any treatment ranged from once a day to once every two weeks. I never went longer than two weeks without at least one attack. I had several tests to rule out other causes. I was diagnosed with Meier’s Disease in May 2009. I received a second opinion with the same diagnosis of Meniere's Disease in June 2009. I received a third opinion with the same diagnosis as Meniere's disease in August 2009.

    Treatment History and results prior to starting High Dose Vitamin C:

    I have tried the following treatments since I started having symptoms: Diuretics and low-salt diet (I was already on a diuretic and low-salt diet for hypertension for over a year when I started having MM symptoms. They did nothing to prevent my symptoms or reduce them. Also of note: I saw three ENTs, one neurologist, two neuroTogists, and the predominant inner ear/balance specialist in New Jersey. Did not have a firm diagnosis for 4 years and spent thousands of dollars); Steroids (No change in symptoms); histamines (made symptoms worse. Doctor took me off the histamines after 2 weeks); JOH regimen (No vertigo, slight dizziness but manageable, slight reduction in fullness and tinnitus for six months. Caught the flu earlier this year and symptoms returned. Have continued on regimen); Chiropractic (significantly reduced duration and frequency of vertigo attacks, no change in fullness/hearing/tinnitus); Acyclovir (symptom-free after 6 days and maintained for 1 month. Caught a cold and symptoms returned); Note: I made a personal choice not to have any type of destructive vestibular procedure i.e. gent injections or surgery. I have no experience pro or con with this line of treatment.

    Rationale for experimenting with High Dose Vitamin C

    As stated above I caught a cold (or virus) while I was on a business trip in San Diego. After being symptom-free for one month, my Meniere's symptoms came back after the cold hit me. I had the same experience last winter after being symptom-free for 6 months on the JOH regimen. I increased my Acyclovir dosage back to 800mg 3x's per day. I was definitely concerned because a) I had been taking 2000mg of Vitamin C for almost 2 years and I was still catching these colds b) I had cold symptoms for about 2 weeks with no improvement. I read Solari's (Ray) post on his success with high dose Vitamin C. I did my own research and decided to proceed. My intention was to experiment with high dose Vitamin C and continue to take my Acyclovir Rx at the high doses recommended by Dr. Gacek. After consulting my family doctor, I decided to stop taking Acyclovir until I knew how the high doses of Vitamin C would affect my system. At the time, my hope was that Vitamin C would give me enough of an immune boost to resume my Acyclovir and increase its effectiveness.

    Personal Experience working up to Bowel Tolerance:

    My original bowel tolerance level was 22,000mg. I started at 2,000mg adding 1,000-2,000mg per day. The day I started I had a 30 minute episode of rotational vertigo, imbalance, fullness, and hearing loss. I was also nursing the cold or flu mentioned above. When I reached 5,000mg, the cold symptoms went away along with the dizziness. At 8,000mg, the fullness went away and my hearing came back about 80%. Tinnitus was approx. 4 out of 10 with 10 being the worst. At 10,000mg, my hearing came back 90%, tinnitus 2 out of 10. Stayed that way until 19,000mg, fullness came back, hearing went significantly down, and I had a 60 second vertigo attack followed by dizziness for about an hour. The next day at 20,000mg, dizziness disappeared. No more vertigo. Reached bowel tolerance @ 22,000mg. The next day, I did 22,000mg again to make sure I had truly reached bowel tolerance. I did. Fullness disappeared; hearing came back to 90% but tinnitus increased to about 7 out of 10. No dizziness or vertigo. The next day, I scaled back to 21,000mg. No bowel tolerance. Stayed at 21,000mg. After two, maybe two and a half days, tinnitus virtually disappeared, maybe 1 out of 10 if I really concentrated on trying to hear it. After several weeks at this level with no return in symptoms, my bowel tolerance level fell drastically to 15,000mg. I consulted a Vitamin C expert that I connected with during my journey and he advised that the drop was normal and signaled that I probably had another toxin (possibly the cold I referenced) still in my system even though the most obvious symptoms were not prevalent. This was now eradicated resulting in less Vitamin C required by my system. This drop did not affect the improvement in my MM symptoms in any adverse way.

    Current results

    I have maintained the same success level with practically no MM symptoms as stated above. I continue to take high doses of Vitamin C just below my current bowel tolerance level. I will have another audiogram after I have maintained that level for 6 months.

    From Debbie D 9/28/10
    So.....I was asked to post some more info on my Vitamin C experience. I know some of you don't care or are skeptics, so feel free to pass on reading. I will try to be as brief as I can so anyone can feel free to direct message me with questions. I plan to stay on the site a while longer to answer any follow up questions.

    First of all, let me say that I don't know if I am doing this "right" so am NOT saying this is the correct way. I think anyone interested in the Vitamin C experiment should ready Solari's posts. I am just telling you what I did.

    I begin in late June taking the c-1000 powder from Vitamin Shoppe. I mixed 1000mg with water, three times a day. After no ill results, I increased it by 1000/day and continued to do that (sometimes increasing by 2000/day) until I reached bowel tolerance. For me that meant, loose bowels. I didn't spend all day in the bathroom and never had nausea, just had to get there pretty quickly. I worked all the time through this and it was no big deal. I had no negative affects at all from the Vitamin C. I should mention that from what I have read, it is important to spread out the Vitamin C. Because I take it in bottles of water, I am pretty much drinking it throughout the day. That may contribute to my success. I now spread the dosage out in 4 bottles of water. I think the dosage is not important because everyone is different but it is more than 10,000mg and less than 20000.

    Within 2 weeks I felt a difference. First the dizziness stopped, no more vertigo and my hearing started to improve. Within a couple of months, the tinnitus was gone. I have done nothing different but the vitamin C. I have continued the JOH regimen which brought me some relief but not to this extent. I truly do not feel any symptoms of Meniere's. I still wear hearing aids and probably always will but I have had Meniere's for 15 years and I am sure some permanent hearing loss has occurred. But my hearing is much much better. With the hearing aids, I now live like most normal folks.

    So, that's my story, folks and I'm sticking to it.


    Updated by Debbie D 10/7/10

    I had slight dizziness twice in the past week, both on days where the barometric pressure was acting up. Otherwise, I continue to be dizzy-free and my hearing is great. Still using hearing aids of course, but hear about anything the average person hears and I can even hear on my lousy office phone without the speaker. I will go back to the audiologist next month and look forward to a new hearing test. Life is still terrific in my mega-vitamin C world! :)


    From CGR 09/30/10
    My [still short] story:

    Disclaimer: Due to brain fog, some of this may not be entirely accurate (e.g. dates). I should have kept a diary.

    I had sudden (overnight) single-sided deafness in the left ear in 2005. No known cause. Some dizziness for a few months after that, but nothing serious so I didn't worry about it. About the same time, tinnitus started, but at low levels (crickets chirping, occasional notes).

    Last year in the Spring, I had another bout of morning dizzies, but they went away after two months and I didn't think much about them.

    This past late Spring, I started having the same. Again, nothing serious, so I ignored it for a few months, but in July, it started getting bad and more chronic (no longer limited to mornings), so I went to an ENT.

    MRI, CTScans, ENG, etc. No dx.

    I tend to lose track of time around here because I entered a period of 3 weeks where it was a living hell (although admittedly nothing like what some folks around here have experienced, so maybe I’m a sissy). I couldn't drive, couldn't work, could barely walk with a cane, and didn't go outside for days at a time. Tullio's was awful. Tinnitus was driving me nuts. I was taking 3-4 mg of Ativan just to maintain sanity, but it was not relieving. I could not sleep through the night without taking another Ativan.

    Hooked up with John via email and started on full JOH August 26. I also started taking 6000 mg of D3 and cut back on sodium. I also started wearing ear plugs for the Tullio's sometime in there. Started feeling a bit better within a week or so, but mostly just a more positive mood. Of course, I realize that JOH takes months to fully kick in.

    Started Hi-C when I read about Carnyard's experience. Got to BT at 22k (rushed it a bit; others go up more slowly I believe). Cut back to 20k for a few days. Now it seems that my BT is around 16k, so I’m taking 15k a day.

    Ok, so where am I today? I'm still new at this, and this is ongoing, but I’ve already gotten more relief than I hoped for. I can now drive, teach my classes without worry, feel less anxiety, have cut back on the ativan (down to 1.5 mg day), and my tinnitus is not bothering me (although it's not lessened in intensity). I now feel like I can safely take myself through a productive day without having to bail on my duties. The last two nights, I’ve had tremendous sleep for 10+ hours each night. I woke up feeling incredibly rested. And both nights, didn't have to take an ativan halfway through the night. I also was able to sleep without ear plugs for the first time last night. I'm not 100%, but it's a hella lot better than it was and it's still early.

    Take it for what it's worth. If it's a placebo effect, then God Bless Placebo.

    Modification: My current regimen is as follows:

    Full JOH
    D3 - 4000
    GABA - 300
    C - 15,000
    Selenium - 200
    Mag Citrate - 340 (but temp halted due to stomach issues)
    Ativan - 1.5 mg (and dropping)

    CGR Updated on 10/03/10
    Update on my progress:

    The past two days I had been wearing my earplug less and less (for the Tullio's). Today is the first day that I have not worn it at all yet. No dizzy symptoms at all. The noises are still a bit annoying, but that's far better than the crashing sounds I was hearing before.

    My tinnitus is not annoying me at all anymore. In fact, as I am writing this, I had to think about it to see if the sound was still there. It is, but not very loud.

    I'm still at 15,000 mg per day of C.

    CGR updated on 10/05/10
    I had a hearing test done today because i felt like my hearing in my good ear was getting better. I used to have 30-40 db loss in many of the higher frequencies from awhile back. Today, the worst loss was 10 db in two frequencies (the rest were 0 loss), which is well above normal.

    I dunno what to think...

    From sirlanc 10/02/10
    My Vitamin C story.

    I have not had any vertigo since Nov 09 and living a normal life other then 60db hearing loss in one ear and slight tinnitus. Vertigo stopped right after starting with Calcium Channel Blockers. Initially Flunarizine which is not an FDA approved drug and after three months Verapamil an FDA approved drug which also treats my BP.

    That said I have had some negligible balance and dizziness issues. I used have some off days when I was a little unstable and was felling a little sick to my stomach. If I were to stand up and tilt my head 90 degrees to the side of my bad ear I used to have about 5 seconds of dizziness and then it would stop. Finally I am a wine lover and when I would drink more than two glasses of wine I would become unstable. These symptoms were consistent coming about once or twice a week and while they did not affect my life at all, they were a constant reminder of MD.

    All these months I was taking 3g of Vitamin C per day which is the dosage of my multivitamin, JOH and Verapamil. A few months ago after reading it on this forum and doing my own research on safety, I increased my dosage of Vitamin C step by step to 15g per day, about two weeks after that my remaining balance issues disappeared and have not come back.

    I don't know if my improved condition was caused by the Vitamin C dosage increase, I am also not sure about the Verapamil. For this reason I do plan to stop both of these in the next few months so see if my condition changes. I will update the forum.

  2. carnyard

    carnyard New Member

    How to Work Toward Bowel Tolerance from Carnyard 9/22/10
    For those of you with jobs and responsibilities who cannot afford to spend a day at home dedicated to reaching bowel tolerance, the slow and steady method is probably your best bet. Start with 2000mg of Vitamin C on the first day and keep adding 1000-2000mg every day spreading your doses out throughout the day as the number grows. A good ceiling for a single dose is your weight in kilograms x 65mg For example, a male weighing 220lbs is approx 100kg x 65mg = 6500mg max per dose. With a systematic steady progression, when you reach bowel tolerance, it should be on your last dose of the day. When you wake up the next morning, the Vitamin C counter goes back to zero so you start with the same sequence minus 1000-2000mg. If you reach bowel tolerance again, start again the next day minus 1000-2000mg. When you go an entire day without loose stool, you have found your maintenance level. This method was derived based on conversations and advice I received from Vitamin C advocates, not from the medical literature.

    The preferred method in the Vitamin C community for people with infectious diseases (defined by Vitamin C advocates as colds, flu, allergies, herpes, cancer, etc) is consistent with the first article I posted which I will re-post here:

    3000mg every 30 minutes until your first episode of loose stool, then 2000mg every hour. What this article is not clear on is you should stop completely for the day when you have full blown diarrhea. Then you calculate your total Vitamin C intake for that day. 75% of that number should be your daily amount moving forward. Divide the 75% number over 4-6 doses throughout the day. Many Vitamin C advocates recommend that you repeat the mega dose day at least once a week for two reasons: 1) Your bowel tolerance fluctuates based on your current health so your optimum daily amount should also be fluctuated accordingly. 2) Infectious diseases are survivors. The method described above is called "Vitamin C Flush". The theory is that you overwhelm your system with Vitamin C and once the Vitamin C reaches your rectum causing diarrhea, that is your clue that the maximum amount of Vitamin C has been absorbed in all the key areas of your body AND has overwhelmed any virus or disease. The diarrhea is not only flushing out excess Vitamin C but all the toxins as well. Repeating the process on a weekly basis is ensuring that you are putting the full court press on any and all viruses. Frankly, most of what I have read and been told is that completing the mega-dose day once is more than enough as long as you are taking your maintenance dose every day after that. It would only be necessary to repeat if the symptoms return or if they don't start to improve on the maintenance dose after a few weeks.

    Whether you go slowly or quickly, the key is to reach bowel tolerance and stay on the maintenance level. For me, I started to notice an improvement in symptoms as I was progressing upward before I reached bowel tolerance. But I continued to press on.

    I would also recommend taking pure Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) in pill or powder form. C-Complexes have other ingredients that may be harmful in large doses. I take a time released C-Complex, but I limit it to 3 pills a day max. I get the majority of my Vitamin C from ascorbic acid capsules.

    Studies and References (General Health)

    Dr. Thomas Levy Lecture at 'Vitamin C Can Cure' Coalition in New Zealand

    Megascorbate Therapies: Vitamin C in Medicine Vol. 1,1
    Articles for the General Public
    Vitamin C: How Much is Enough by Patrick Holford
    The Healing Factor: From Fishes to Mammals by Irwin Stone
    Articles for the Physician
    Significance of High Daily Intake of Ascorbic Acid in Preventive Medicine by Frederick R. Klenner, MD.
    Vitamin C and Cancer: A Review of the Scientific Literature by Gary Null, et. al.

    Dr. Robert F. Cathcart, M.D. Article "Vitamin C, Titrating to Bowel Tolerance, Anascorbemia, and Acute Induced Scurvy"

    How to Live Longer And Feel Better by Linus Pauling

    Curing the Incurable: Vitamin C, Infectious Diseases, and Toxins by Thomas E. Levy, M.D.

    Ascorbate: The Science of Vitamin C by Dr. Steve Hickey & Dr. Hilary Roberts

    Studies and References (Specific to Herpes Virus in accordance with the theory that MM may be caused by active HSV-1 Virus)

    Dr Andrew W. Saul, PhD article "SHINGLES (Herpes Zoster) Treatment That Works"

    "Intravenous administration of vitamin C in treatment of herpetic neuralgia: two case reports"

    "A clinical pilot study of lignin--ascorbic acid combination treatment of herpes simplex virus"

    "Anti-viral effects of ascorbic and dehydroascorbic acids in vitro"

    "Natural remedies for Herpes simplex"

    "Inactivation of HSV-2 by ascorbate-Cu(II) and its protecting evaluation in CF-1 mice against encephalitis."

    In vitro effect of ascorbic acid on infectivity of herpesviruses and paramyxoviruses.


    Personal Experiences:

    None presented for this thread

    Studies and References (General Health)

    Vitamin C

    The daily consumption of a few grams of vitamin C has been proposed as a therapeutic and preventative measure for a variety of pathological conditions, such as colds [27], cancer [28], schizophrenia [29], hyper-cholesterolaemia and arteriosclerosis [30]. In recent years, many additional studies have been published relating to vitamin C and the common cold. Efforts to confirm the supposed benefits of high doses of ascorbic acid through controlled experiments have had negative or inconclusive results [31-35].

    In some cases, ascorbic acid in high doses seems to have a pharmacological effect unrelated to its nutritional role as a vitamin. It must be recognized that continual high intake in the range of several grams daily can produce adverse effects.

    Urinary uric acid increases with high intakes of vitamin C. Even a single dose of 4 g results in about a 200 g elevation in uric acid excretion [36]. Doses of 0.5-2 g have no observable effect. Ascorbic acid also lowers urine pH, which can lead to kidney stones due to the precipitation of uric acid.

    Another adverse effect of megadoses of vitamin C is an increase in urinary oxalic acid, because this is a major catabolite of ascorbic acid. When the pH of the urine declines, oxate is precipitated. The result is the formation of oxalate kidney stones.

    There is also an increased tendency to haemolysis of erythrocytes that is especially serious in individuals who suffer from glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase deficiency [38]. Supplements of 2 g vitamin C daily for two weeks reduce the bacterial capacity of the leukocytes. When doses are stopped, however, this returns to normal [39].

    It is important to mention the phenomenon of dependence [31]. Chronic high-level intakes of ascorbic acid induce catabolic mechanisms of ascorbic acid, which may precipitate acute deficiency on return to normal doses. There are reports of acute scurvy developing in two infants breast-fed by mothers who had been consuming more than 400 mg vitamin C daily during pregnancy [31, 40].

    There is some evidence that a high intake of vitamin C may interfere with the absorption of vitamin B12, and to indicate this, but the epidemiologic significance of this is doubtful [41]. There has also been speculation that haemochromatosis might result from the increased absorption of iron in individuals already having a high reserve of iron [42]. However, there is no evidence that this occurs.

    In conclusion, since the many supposed beneficial effects of high doses of vitamin C have not satisfactorily confirmed, and since excessive intake could be harmful, the consumption of megadoses without medical supervision is not recommended.

    Studies and References (Specific to Herpes Virus in accordance with the theory that MM may be caused by active HSV-1 Virus)

    None presented for this thread.


    Personal Experiences:

    From Aladdin 9/29/10

    I have only read a couple posts here as this thread is so long.

    Thank you Jordan for that research. I have kidney and liver conditions and have found that certain herbs/vitamins hurt the condition even more. Glucosamine/chrondoitin for one and for awhile I was taking high doses of vitamin d but stopped all herbs/vitamins when my liver started to decline.

    High doses of vitamin C - give me cramps and make me use the rest-room a lot. I think vitamin C is a necessary vitamin for the body but haven't found the right dosage yet. It also gives me canker sores.

    I am a person who believes in using natural supplements and pharmaceutical (sp) combined. I too also take dyazide.
  3. carnyard

    carnyard New Member

    This is everything I received and received permission to include. If you wish to add something either pro, con, or inconclusive, please do so by tomorrow.
  4. CGR

    CGR Guest

    A couple of people PMed me asking if the C was not working for me anymore. The answer is that i don't know. It seems that i may not have MM after all, so this may not be viral.

    Edit: I also have new audiogram that shows no hearing loss in my right ear now. I believe others have mentioned regaining hearing with hi-C.
  5. CGR

    CGR Guest

    Update: I'm pretty sure now that i have a PLF, and if so, there is no great reason to expect Vitamin C to work for me in the traditional anti-viral sense that it will stop the dizziness associated with MM.

    I'm still taking the C though for three reasons:

    1) I'm convinced that it has cured my nasal issues (which actually showed up on an MRI and are now gone).
    2) I've had no back pain since starting the C regimen. Of course the JOH regiment might also be contributing.
    3) If this even stops half the colds i usually get in the winter, then i'll be delighted. I haven't one yet... knock on wood.

    So that's where i'm at.

    Also, i noticed today that my tinnitus is almost gone and that i hadn't thought about it in days. Not sure what to attribute that to, but i'll take it!
  6. DebbieD

    DebbieD New Member

    Update! Things continue to be great. I have had only a couple of days with some dizziness when there was a big change in barometric pressure but nothing major. My hearing continues to improve. I havent seen my audiologist yet for the numbers, but believe me, it is much MUCH improved.

    So, continuing JOH and mega-Vitamin C continues to be a big success with me. ;D

  7. tbone71

    tbone71 New Member

    Which vitamin C product do you recommend for the megadose experiment? I buy regulary from or Please post product no if you can. Thanks.
  8. DebbieD

    DebbieD New Member

    Hi Tbone. I buy from Vitamin Shoppe too and use both the C-1000 powder and C-1000 capsules. Hope this helps!

  9. CGR

    CGR Guest

    The 5-hour Flu

    My son woke up yesterday with a fever and all the symptoms of the nasty flu that is going around (coughing, running nose, nausea, dizziness, weak, etc). I immediately gave him 1000 mgs of C every hour on the hour. No other medicine.

    Within an hour, his fever and nausea was gone. By hour 3, his other symptoms had gone and his nose was clear. At hour 4, he took a nap, still feeling weak. He woke up an hour later feeling fine and said he was ready to go to school. I gave him the 5th and 6th dose of C just to make sure. He never hit BT.

    Today, he is 100%.

    Anecdotal? Yes.
    Placebo? Not likely, as he never knew he was taking anything other than orange juice (i used powder C in the juice).

    I personally took 18,000 mg yesterday to ward off any contagion and got close to BT (you can feel it coming when you've done it enough times). I feel fine. Wife woke up with some of the symptoms, and is taking 1000 mgs every hour today. After her nap, we'll see how she feels.
  10. carnyard

    carnyard New Member

    Good post CGR...
  11. CGR

    CGR Guest

    Carnyard, one thing i can't find is any information about taking C through the night. I was reluctant to do that last night (for myself) bc i didn't want to hit BT in the middle of the night. Do you have any info on this? Is it more effective, if you are actually sick, to take it continuously through the night until you hit BT?
  12. carnyard

    carnyard New Member

    I never take C past 7:30 @ night. The only drawback I've ever experienced with megadosing C is insomnia when I take it too close to bedtime. But I've still received all the benefits without having to take it throughout the night. I don't think it's necessary quite frankly.
  13. CGR

    CGR Guest

    Sounds good. I took my last 3000 right before bed and it didn't cause insomnia. I guess different ppl react differently.
  14. DebbieD

    DebbieD New Member

    A 2011 update! I continue to stay on the JOH regimen and megadosing Vit C and have no symptoms of MM. I am no longer even affected by changes in barometric pressure which was the only thing that hung around for a while. Just to be clear, I have no dizziness, no vertigo, no tinnitus, nothing. My hearing is greatly improved but I continue to wear my hearing aids and probably always will but with them hear better than a lot of people!

    If you are suffering, I really suggest you give it a try. You can find the details on this site.

    I can never, ever thank John of Ohio and Solari for putting me on this track.

    Happy New Year all.

  15. CGR

    CGR Guest

    :D :D :D
  16. DebbieD

    DebbieD New Member

    Dang! I can never thank them ENOUGH!!! :p

    You guys are a tough crowd. LOL

  17. CGR

    CGR Guest

    We're here every weekend as long as the drinks are free and the jokes are good. :D
  18. CGR

    CGR Guest

    I hit BT at well over 60,000 the past 3 days. Musta been a hella virus. The only thing i felt was a bit more imbalanced than usual during my recovery.
  19. solari

    solari Administrator Staff Member

    I'm very glad to hear you're doing well!!

  20. CGR

    CGR Guest

    Thanks ray. Not sure how my recovery would have without C since i tend to catch a virus 4-5 times a year. Not even a sniffle since sept.

Share This Page