Jesus didn’t just show up on Christmas day.

Discussion in 'Your Religion & Spiritual Center' started by Henrysullivan, Dec 3, 2010.

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  1. Henrysullivan

    Henrysullivan New Member

    I did not write this, but came to me in email today. I thought it interesting and so should pass it on to whomever else might.

    Jesus didn’t just show up on Christmas day.

    Yes, He was born in Bethlehem and placed in a manger, but did you know He was around before that?

    John 3:17 says that God sent His Son into the world. When someone is sent somewhere, it usually means they are sent from somewhere else, right?

    In John 6:38 Jesus said, “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.”

    So Jesus was sent “down from heaven.”

    And it wasn’t like He came to be just before He was sent to earth. Check out this prophecy of the Messiah, foretold by the prophet Micah long before Jesus’ birth. And it also foretells the birthplace, too, so listen to Micah 5:2. It says, “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of you shall come forth to Me The One to be Ruler in Israel, whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting.”

    So Jesus was around before His birth, but for how long? Listen to Jesus’ words in John 8:58. He said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” So Jesus was around before Abraham’s time.

    Or we can rewind even further. In John 17:5 Jesus talks about being with the Father before the world began. Colossians 1:17 says it this way, “He is before all things…”

    In John chapter one, Jesus is referred to as “The Word,” and listen to what it says. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.”

    So there is Jesus, He is God, in the beginning, and everything was made through Him. And He was sharing glory with the Father, until…

    Galatians four picks up the story. It says, “But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman...”

    Philippians two says that Jesus was “in the form of God,” and “did not consider it robbery to be equal with God.” So there He was, in heaven, as God, in this highly exalted state of glory – and then came the “fullness of time,” and what did He do?

    Philippians two says He “made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant and coming in the likeness of men.”

    Back to John chapter one, where Jesus is called the Word, it says “the Word became flesh and dwelt among us…”

    And when did that happen? Jesus the Word became human flesh as described by the angel Gabriel in Luke chapter one, when the Holy Spirit came upon Mary and the power of the Highest overshadowed her. At that precise moment Mary went from being a virgin with nothing in her womb, to being a virgin with the tiny unborn Word in her womb. That’s when the Word became flesh, not on Christmas Day.

    And it fulfilled the prophecy from Isaiah seven which said, “Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.” And what does Immanuel mean? It literally means, “God with us.” The virgin Mary conceived and at that moment, God was with us, the Word became flesh, in the likeness of a human.

    Here is an interesting scene. In Luke chapter one, after Mary has conceived, she goes to visit Elizabeth, who is pregnant with John the Baptist; and listen to what Elizabeth calls Mary. In Luke 1:43 she refers to her as “the mother of my Lord.” It wasn’t that Mary became the mother of Jesus on Christmas Day. She already was the mother of Jesus. The Word was already made flesh and dwelling among us.

    Now don’t get me wrong. I love Christmas as much as the next guy. I love the story in Luke chapter two of the birth of Jesus and the manger and the shepherds and the angels and all of that. Peace on earth, good will toward men – I love it.

    But what we celebrate on Christmas Day was not the beginning of the story, and it wasn’t the beginning of Jesus.

    For that we go back to before Abraham, even to before the creation of the world, and what do we find?

    We find Jesus the Word, in heaven, as God, in a highly exalted state of glory.

  2. hollymm

    hollymm Me, 'in' a tree.

    Interesting yes, but a little 'off'. It somehow feels incorrect. What did you think of it besides interesting?
  3. Titus

    Titus New Member

    AMEN, Hank. Thanks for passing it along.

    I studied the prophetic books when AFTER I first accepted Jesus. Before that time, they just seemed like empty words. Now, they are amazing to read.
  4. leviticus

    leviticus Jonah's whale

    Thanks for posting that Hank, and AMEN!!
  5. buschiabo

    buschiabo New Member

    We celebrate the birth of Jesus as we celebrate the birth of any child, on the day they enter the world - not the day they enter their mother's womb.
  6. cynthia

    cynthia I hope to shed this body for a better one some day

    There are so many prophecies that are fulfilled concerning Jesus Christ.

    I never needed any proof of God's exisistence for as a toddler child God revealed Himself to me so I was blessed to grow up without doubt and unbelief as to His existance. However that being typed I know that experience has not happened to everyone so I respect people that struggle with doubt because God has not shown them the things He has shown me.

    If anyone wants to take the time to read this it is lengthy but well worth the read. For it is for those people that NEED scientific proof for they have never had anything supernatural happen to them.
  7. Linda1002

    Linda1002 New Member

    And the interesting thing about that is the Bible doesn't tell us the date of Jesus' birth.
  8. jim1884again

    jim1884again advocating baldness be recognized as a disability

    my father, the grandson of a minister whose church was on the farm where my father grew up, used to harp about this, saying Christmas wasn't on Christmas--I don't know if he heard this from his fire and brimstone grandfather or this came from his own readings--he likely had read the entire bible by the time he was 14

    and Henry's words are about exactly what I have heard/read multiple times, especially the "word becomes flesh" part, and in the beginning was what? long before Bethlehem, in the beginning was...the word
  9. hollymm

    hollymm Me, 'in' a tree.

    Henry's words are about exactly what I have heard/read multiple times, especially the "word becomes flesh" part, and in the beginning was what? long before Bethlehem, in the beginning was...the word

    Jim, what you said really captured something in me. Im trying to understand the original post. I know a lot of people here probably already understand it. I asked Hank what was his interest. I guess what I wanted to know was what was there that prompted him enough to post it.

    You helped me to understand some of it. I'm thinking that the name Jesus is used to put a name to what has always been there - the 'word' of God. I understand that Jesus was a person in the flesh. Maybe the whole post was a poetic way of saying Jesus is God?? I do NOT mean any disrespect. I know the bible is very poetic in the symbolic way it's written. I now that it's deep and can never fully be understood. That's why I'm asking questions about the original post - to try to understand all the symbolism that was used to describe a very simple truth to millions of people.

    How far out am I here? I'm understanding that Jesus (the word) became flesh and the word is God (in the beginning was the word). I always understood it to be God was here in the beginning and borned - from Mary - Jesus to spread his word to the multitudes. Again simply put, God became Jesus on earth.
  10. Titus

    Titus New Member

    Holly, In my opinion, you nailed it :)
  11. jim1884again

    jim1884again advocating baldness be recognized as a disability

    You pose some very interesting questions Hollymm and ones that are shared by others.

    The thing I will reinforce is the notion that Jesus, in Christian doctrine, has always been there. He wasn't created and sent to earth like some enlightened puppet, but he has always been and will always be part of God, with God; in effect he is God but in a form that man's limited understanding can grasp. Remember if God is infinite, he has no beginning and no end. The universe as we know it may have a beginning and an end, but God does not. We can't grasp that, but we can grasp the notion of Christ being love personified, of a God in human form who sacrifices his earthly life for the sins of all mankind.

    The "word" has many connotations, one of which has been noted, the word became flesh (Jesus) but it also signifies that this is God's way of making a world, a universe, that can be described and partially understood by man. To me, the word, from the Greek logos, has several meanings: reason, the transcendent action of God, and perhaps most significantly for Christianity, the second person of the trinity, the son, Jesus.

    Back to Henry's original comments: "But what we celebrate on Christmas Day was not the beginning of the story, and it wasn’t the beginning of Jesus". Like others have said, we celebrate this as we would the birth of any child, but there is something obviously transcendent about the birth of Jesus. It signifies the opportunity for renewal, for reconnection with a God from whom we were eternally alienated because of original sin, because mankind chose knowledge of good and evil over the blissful oblivious union with its creator.

    more than I intended to say...
  12. Imnoscientist

    Imnoscientist New Member

    My interpretation of this is that there are two ways to view Jesus' presence (and I say this as a non believer but as one who was raised a Christian) - the spiritual (always) and the 'flesh' (here on Earth). I would say spiritually he has always been here but as a man, just that one time. My understanding is that Christians co-opted existing festivals to mark the birth and death of Christ. Christmas was a pagan festival to celebrate the winter solstice (hence trees, mistletoe etc) and that Easter the summer solstice (from Oestrus, new life, hence rabbits, eggs etc). It is my understanding that historically Jesus was more likely born around mid April.
  13. June-

    June- New Member

    I think it is a complicated way of saying Jesus is a manifestation of God, which would not be a new idea for most Christians.
  14. Titus

    Titus New Member

    That's also correct.

    We'll never be sure of the day Jesus entered into this world as a baby, but we chose a day to remember celebrate.
  15. June-

    June- New Member

    And there are Christians who do not celebrate the 25th or the 7th.
  16. hollymm

    hollymm Me, 'in' a tree.

    Thanks for the confirmation Kim. You know how to get right to the point ;) :-*

    The thing that I was having the biggest problem with in the original post was when it was said that Jesus was with and was God in the beginning. If I get it the way I thought I did, Jesus became because of God having a human host, Mary.

    Maybe it's just stupid semantics I'm talking here but some of the original qoute Hank posted seemed to my neophite eyes to be saying that Jesus was God at the beginning. I had always thought that God was out there by himself and one of the reasons he created man was so he wouldn't be alone. Not that he put man on an equal level with him. He, in fact, specifically did not want 'man' to know the good and the evil of things.

    I've just been so close to resolving my issues with how Jesus came about and this post came along that everyone seemed to understand but me. So, once more, I'm a little lost. I think it might be best for me to stick with what Kim said. I'm afraid if I don't, it will be a 'bashing' thread once more when all I want is some interface with people, very intelligent people, who know a lot more than I when it comes to God and his love for us.

    As an aside, I'm really glad I was born on christmas - whenever Jesus was born, that's the day a lot of people join together and celebrate each other's love.
  17. Titus

    Titus New Member

    Also correct. It isn't the day that matters, it's Jesus.
  18. Titus

    Titus New Member

    Holly, I believe that God manifests Himself to us in three persons for reasons only He understands. It may be because our brains are too weak to comprehend something that is not of our five senses, or not of this world. I believe we are so limited compared to God and that is why He uses parables throughout the Bible and why Jesus used parables.

    I believe there is One God and Jesus is a manifestation of Him on earth. I believe the Holy Spirit is a manifestation of Him that dwells around us and in believers, who teaches, warns, convicts, and leads. Just my opinion based on scriptures, on faith, and on what Jesus said.

    No matter, this isn't a debate forum so I won't debate my opinion. I hope my simple explanation gives someone comfort, peace, or strengthens their faith.

  19. GreatfulTed2

    GreatfulTed2 New Member

    The way that I use to help me understand the trinity described is think of water.
    There is water, then you have ice. Water and ice are the same thing in different forms.
    With water and ice you have steam. Here again the same thing in a different form.
    So with this example you can have 3 things that are the same yet different.
    this is a very simple way of putting it but I believe that it may help everyone understand the difference.

    As far as the role of each I believe that Kim in the above post gives a pretty good discription.

    I bleieve that Jim1884 is on the right track with the idea of "word"
    The Greek term for word is logos. It would mean a persons thoughts or reason.
    In the Hebrew laguage of the Old Testament, "The Word" is described as a agent of create (Psalm 33:6),
    The source of God's message to his his people the the prophets (Hosea 1:2) and God's law, his standard of holiness (Psalm 119:11).
    I tell you this to say that John clearly spoke of Jesus as a human being he knew and loved (John 1:14),
    who as at the same time the Creator of the universe, the ultimate revelation of God, and also the living picture of God's holiness.
    Jesus as the logos (the Word) reveals God's mind to us.

    Hope this helps a little bit.
  20. hollymm

    hollymm Me, 'in' a tree.

    I feel ya Kim, I really do. The strange thing is that I was thinking last night and earlier today that when God decided to come to earth in the form of Jesus, he was actually speaking in his simplest form of communication. We still, to this day don't understand so much and people have such differing oinions because the word speaks to the heart and we each have our own heart (read soul). He tried to make us understand. He kept having to break down his words to his disciples and even now, we're still trying to understand it all.

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