not religious

What am I missing here?? I said Sarita not Santa. I dont miss Santa at all, even though I was born on Christmas! I miss her words and sense of humor. I hope she comes back soon.

 

Ho, Ho, Ho, Merry Christmas

 

Happy, Merry, delicious, gift given, celebrating Christmas!!!

 

I already got my Christmas present, two months early. My husband bought me a new laptop computer. Bought it Sunday.

 

Shoot, Holly, don't you understand that along with defective ears I also have poor eyesight? sorry about the confusion.

 

What confusion? This is a 'not religious' post and Santa is coming around the time of year Jesus was supposed to have been born, or was that another way for the merchants to get people to spend their money during a time when everything was cold and darkness came early so everyone stayed home and therefore the merchants were losing money?

It sure seems that way now. It's probably one of the reasons I don't do Christmas. In fact, about the only thing I really like about it is that families get together that maybe haven't seen each other all year and people are more giving (more than just presents too)...oh yea, and I get to get another year older!

 

I try to stay clear of the commercial Christmas. I focus on Jesus. I like to go to the church services because they usually have wonderful choirs at Christmas. I think back of the Christmas of my youth, going to midnight mass, getting so excited to see all my relatives.

This year my ex-husband will probably be around for Christmas. We are still drawn together by our love for the Lord. God willing I'll bake some goodies for people too busy or too sick to cook.

Sometimes I wish we were all closer in distance.

 

I bring this question to this subject topic because I once again I have a question or two about religion. To be babtized in the holy spirit is different than being babtaized in Jesus' name, right? Does a preacher have to perform both rituals?

I ask because I was babtized in the holy spirit in church so many years ago. I've talked about it on this thread. I also, on two occasions without a priest or pastor, went into the water praising Jesus' name and becoming completely emersed. On the first occasion it was in the ocean with a group of us from the church. I'll never forget the joy I felt. On the second occasion in was in the bay area in San Diego, but this was marred by one of the members trying to touch me inappropriately upon leaving the water. I remember this one without joy and was actually frightened at the time - and no, I've never spoke of it til now and am still a bit embarassed by it. I just want to tell the whole story.

I guess I could go to a church and ask a priest but I feel more comfortable with the people I've met here.

In essense, how does babtism happen?

 

Holly, water baptism does not save you in my opinion, its just an outward showing of an inward change and you are professing it to the world, To Be truly Born AGain as it in says in John 3:3, you must believe in Jesus and what He teaches, you must believe that the Bible is the Word of God, if you do a simple prayer of repentence is all that is needed to truly become a child of God, Here is a prayer I use to tell people how to accept Christ as their Saviour, Dear Jesus,I confess that I am a sinner in need of a Saviour, I ask you right now to forgive me of all my sins, I believe you died on the cross for me and rose again the third day, I ask you to come into my heart and make me a child of God, I want to serve you, in Jesus's Holy name I pray, Amen!!!,,,,,,,This simple prayer prayed sincerely will allow the Holy Spirit to come into your heart and it will change your life forever, you will begin to see things in a whole new light, It is Holly a step of Faith,,believing is seeing,,,this is the first step you need to take in order to understand more about Jesus and His teachings, You have already said you have experienced a spiritual presence before, that joy,,,now take it to the heart, and you will have that Spirit permanently within you, and what a peace it brings,,It is the Love of a life time!!!

 

I'm trying to resolve some of my own 'belief' issues. I can feel most of what people are saying, I just have such a hard time beliving that Christ was the son of God. I can believe God saying that this being will be the spokes person for all mankind and through him will mankind be saved - but a virgin birth is just so hard to get around.

I have to believe it all to really give of myself or be accepted, and If I can't get there, I don't know how it will happen...

 

when you go outside at night and look up Holly do you believe God created all that?? If you do then how hard would it be to have a virgin birth?? In order to be a perfect Sacrifice that is the way it had to be,, if Jesus was all human then He would have been the in the line of Adam,,but by being conceived of the Holy Ghost His paternal side would have been from God, So He was human yet also God, now since we know the Bible says that God cannot look upon Sin Jesus had to be born this way, if not He would not have had perfect blood to sacrifice for our sins, the old testament covenant of offering animals did not wash away sins and that is why everyone who believed was not in Heaven but was in Abraham's paradise, thats why the Bible says that when Jesus died on the cross there was an earthquake and some of the saints come out of the graves and visited people, Jesus immediately emptied out Abrahams paradise and all who were saved in the old testament went to God in Heaven because the perfect blood of Jesus now covered their sins... It had to be that way to make a Perfect Saviour!!!

 

Holly, did you watch this video brought to us by Cynthia?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgF_iwUNqFU

It explains a lot and is an amazing testimony. It takes about an hour. But it is worth the investment of time. In particular, video #9 is amazing tying his experiences in with the scriptures. Watch it.

 

Holly,
This is a post you wrote on page 53 that I never responded to. In brief:

1. Muslims don't believe the Qur'an was "written" in the sense that someone sat down to write it as a creative or historical work. Rather the Qur'an consists of God's words as revealed to Prophet Muhammed, who recited them as he received them over his lifetime, starting from when he was about 40. As I mentioned before, Prophet Muhammed was known by his community to be illiterate, so the people knew firsthand the miracle of this revelation and understood its significance. Even if someone does not speak Arabic, I expect that he can hear and sense the intricate beauty and rhythm in the Qur'an, which is considered a linguistic miracle that cannot be replicated. While this was taking place, the Prophet's learned companions were writing down all the verses, and that is how we have a written preserved Qur'an that still exists today in its pure, original form. As you have probably noticed, there has been a lot of talk lately about translations and misinterpretations of the Bible. Most Christians do not know the original Bible and have not read it in its original language. It has been retranslated several times from texts that are not the original source...for example: Hebrew to Greek to English (numerous versions) and then to other languages. Lots of room for error as even one word can make a critical difference in the meaning of a verse. This is not to mention what has been lost or obscured over time. In contrast, Muslims are super vigilant about the Qur'an and its preservation. Thousands of people all over the world have committed it to memory in its original Arabic form, and most non-Arab Muslims (like myself, for example) make some effort to study Arabic in order to gain more understanding of the verses. As for the period of time between the prophets...Muhammed lived from 570-632 (about 600-700 years after Jesus).

2. One of the functions of the Qur'an as you stated above is to correct misunderstandings and wrong interpretations about previous revelations/scriptures. It also points to the fact that some of the scriptures were deliberately obscured by people of knowledge for personal gain. I would not say, however, that this is the only function of the Qur'an as it is much more than this. It is God's invitation to humankind to join the ranks of believers. Above all, it is a book of guidance. God says in the Qur'an:

"This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of God..."

3. Regarding Jesus...yes. Islam says that he was born to a virgin mother (Maryam/Mary), but that he is not either God or the son of God. He is a prophet and will come back at the end of time to confirm the message of the Qur'an.

4. Muslims don't look to the Bible to learn about the teachings of Jesus as the Bible is not considered an authentic 100% reliable source of information. Muslims are, however, knowledgeable about Jesus through the Qur'an, and about the miracles he performed. We do not believe he was crucified, but that he was raised up to Heaven. There are various verses in the Qur'an that go into some detail about Jesus and his mother...perhaps I will post them at a later date.

5. You asked if the "new rules" of the Qur'an are consistent with the teachings of Jesus. If you have specific examples of teachings, perhaps this question would be easier to answer.

6. The Qur'an places much emphasis on Jesus not being the son of God because it is a major confusion people have, and it speaks to what many people (then and now) believe. It is not, however, the only difference between Islam and Christianity, or the only topic addressed by the Qur'an.

If I can clarify things further, just let me know.

 

Hi Jordan,

I had a couple of questions for you while the sun comes around to the west coast where Holy is. #3 above has me very confused. If, as we agree, Jesus was born to a virgin, why would that be? What would be His point that God would have made that so? Out of all the billions and billions of folks who have ever walked the planet, what was God thinking singling Jesus as the one man who would be born of a virgin? And why so special for Jesus, but not so for Muhammed, who himself was born of a natural mother and natural father? And if Jesus was born of no natural father, then who was his father? I mean, what is the theology behind that occurring, somewhat of a miracle in its own right. And why Jesus to come back at the end of time to confirm the Qur'an? What about Muhammed? After all, it was his revelation in the first place. Why would Jesus be elected to 'steal the show' at the end? I realize you may have to speculate on a couple of these questions; but surely there is some solid Islamic theology that can help to make sense of these questions I raise. Thanks very much for your time.

Hank

 

Hey Jordan,
Good to hear from you again. Thank you so much for your reply. Yours is a very interesting religion. There is sense in your belief. Don't know that we'd get that kind of input from very many people.

I understand Henery's question and wonder at the answer. We have a person of the Wiccan religion who notes that there have been many virgin births in her religion and all of them were gods of one thing or the other. Just as christians believe that Jesus was born of a virgin mother and is the son of the one true god. What is the significance of noting Jesus was not a virgin birth but will come in the end to confirm the message of the Qur'an if there was not something more special about his birth, life and death than Muhammed?

I would love to hear more stories about Jesus and Mary.

Thanks for checking in with us Jordan.

 

Holly, I think you go that one mistaken. I believe Jordan says that according to Islam Jesus was born of a virgin. That is why I ask the question. Something there doesn't click for me that even Muslims would claim a virgin birth for Jesus. I mean, why? What would be the purpose of a virgin birth for one who is not God, just a prophet, like any other prophet except the virgin birth. Just seems like the virgin birth was not required to fill that roll. That is why I hope Jordan can give us the theology behind that point.

 

In answer to your first question, yes I can call that creation made from God. I believe there is a higher power because of what I see, everyday. And I can call that creator God because there is proof that he has been here since the beginning.

The thing about being a christian is that if I don't beieve with all my heart that Jesus is the son of God, I cannot be a christian. I can surely believe that God gave breath to Jesus but then he gives breath to every child. I can believe that God even gave Jesus special knowledge that no one else had or has ever had. I can believe Jesus was selected by God to perform his miracles and teach his word.

Maybe God was able to look upon Jesus without sin because he was newborn and aren't all newborn's born without sin? I can't make myself believe it. I can't pretend it into exsistance. Now, as I understand it, God did not touch the womb Jesus was born from, the Holy Spirit did. Was that because God could not? I know the Holy Spirit is part of the trinity and I'm not quite sure where he/she came from in the lay of things.

I know, I know, if I read the bible maybe I'd understand a few things. I was babtized and believed it once. what happened that I find it so difficult to believe again? Perhaps it's because God is so perfect that I can believe he can single out one human being being to suffer the sins of all. Maybe it's the woman in me that can't see the possibility of a virgin birth. Maybe I'm looking at a virgin birth in a completely different way that every christian does. I don't know. I only know that if I can't get past this part without true belief in it, I can't be a christian. It won't be allowed...

 

Sorry Hank, You posted right about the same tme as I did. I mis-wrote in my question to her. thanks for the correction. Yet still, the question you ask, I feel is legit. (sorry Jordan I meant to say, 'yea, what HE said')

 

Holly, the Word of God is convicting. By that I mean that there is a natural bond, a connection, between the Word of God and those who hear it. Like you, most of my life if someone had just told me what I just told you, I'd be saying, well, it hasn't convicted me yet, what now? But now that I understand more and more about it, and much of my learning comes from talking with folks right here, questioning it, it makes more and more sense. And the more sense it makes, even under questioning, the more I believe it. And the more testimonies I hear, like the one Cynthia recently posted reference to, the convinced I am even more. But you can't just sit in a room watching Oprah or something to get it. I just use that as just an example. It is something you have to devote regular time to and develop regular habits toward learning what the scriptures are all about. And then you catch the wave. Ever catch a wave? You’re just sitting on a surf board and all of a sudden this force just picks you up and carries you. You don't really have to exert much effort. It does all the work. You just show up and steer. It's very much like that. But you gotta like, maybe, pick a local church and just walk in one Sunday. Check it out. Talk to a few of the folks. That really helps too. And if you like the folks, you naturally get involved in spiritual discussions. All that builds faith. It really is a mustard seed.

As far as the virgin birth is concerned, in my mind that is no more difficult to believe than the fact that we exist at all. That we even exist is a miracle. Somewhere in all of this, God made man out of whatever He conjured to make him from. That means God has the secret of life, the code. That seems a much bigger deal to me than having to actually go through the same channels everyone else goes through to be born. I mean, if God can create man, why can't He create him anyway He wants to? God can speak things into existence. That's all He has to do. God's intentions manifest as truth. So virgin birth is not difficult for me to accept at all.

Why the Holy Spirit to conceive Jesus? Well, theologically there have only been two individuals not born from a mother and father, Adam and Jesus. (Eve was made from Adam so she doesn’t count). Jesus is referred in the Bible as the second Adam. Adam sinned, meaning that all mankind sinned. After all, Adam was all mankind at the time (Eve part of Adam). So all mankind born of Adam's seed was under a curse (See Genesis). Because we are of Adam’s seed, we are under that same curse. That we live in the natural world separated from God and will die physical and spiritual death is the curse attributable to the fall of mankind in the Garden of Eden. So to fulfill God's desire that His greatest creation live with Him eternally, a new uncorrupted, AND UNCORRUPTABLE seed had to be planted in the world, one that was not of Adam's corrupt seed, and therefore not under the curse of Adam. That seed was a brand new seed and was given God's Spirit, the Holy Spirit. It was conceived by the Holy Spirit and that Spirit lives inside of that seed.

Because the Holy Spirit is God's Spirit, this individual was actually God, God in the flesh, God in the natural. He was the visible manifestation of the invisible God. Like God the Father, He would have eternal life, the same that Adam was design to have until he sinned and became cursed. But to have eternal life, one must have been born outside of the curse and remain uncursed by living a perfect life, not sinning, not disobeying God. So here is God's trump card. Because Jesus was God, Jesus could not disobey Himself. Therefore He couldn't sin, even if He wanted to. Therefore He would always remain perfect regardless of what He did. This was God’s master plan. Only one kick, while in the natural, God Himself, in the form of Jesus had to be punished for sins He did not commit and subsequently die. That is what Jesus did for us.

When Jesus met Satan in the wilderness, Satan tried to tempt Jesus. Jesus simply answered that it is written that thou shall not tempt the Lord thy God. Right there, Jesus tells us that He is God, God come to earth, God in the flesh. God took on man's natural body, lived as a man, hungered as a man, felt pain as a man, wept as a man, rendered Himself powerless as any man would be as He was punished and crucified, all for one reason, to fulfill the law, the law of sin and death. He fulfilled the law, so the curse of the law would be broken. All we have to do is ask that our curse be removed in Jesus Name. That's really it. That way we are absolved from our own sin by Jesus' suffering, God's own suffering, and death, as payment for our disobedience. Jesus gives that to us.

In the big picture, to me it is almost as if this natural world is nothing but a cleansing process. God desires man to live with Him eternally in His Kingdom. That is His goal in all of this. But God, Who is perfect, Who is light, cannot let imperfection, darkness, into His Kingdom. That would contaminate not only His kingdom, but also Himself, which of course cannot happen. In the way of that plan is Satan. Because he disobeyed God, he lost the light, therefore became the darkness and was cast out of Heaven. When we sin, disobey God, we obey Satan. There is no middle ground. When we sin, we lose light and take on Satan’s darkness. And because we have that characteristic, darkness, we cannot enter the Kingdom. So sin, darkness, must be removed from our spirits. By making Jesus Lord over our lives, His perfection is counted as righteousness for us. We take on His righteousness, His light. His light shines to every corner of our spirits, cleansing our spirits of darkness. We take on His light, cleansed of darkness by Jesus’ blood. Jesus gives that freely to anyone who asks Him and who makes Him Lord and protector over their lives. It is by Jesus' promise and God's grace that we are saved to live with God eternally. So this natural world is nothing but a way that God can insure that when His Kingdom is finished, essentially everyone will be righteous and worthy to live with Him, pure light, pure obedience, and out of our own free will. God does not coerce. All beside those who are saved, will be destroyed, thrown into the lake of fire. In doing so, sin and darkness will be destroyed. And when they are destroyed, Satan, the spirit of pure sin, pure disobedience, pure darkness, will be destroyed as well. Man’s disobedience is what gives Satan life. If Satan cannot inhabit man’s spirit, he dies. Through deception, falsehood, he inhabits man’s spirit and lives. That is why I may seem so hung up on truth and falsehood. If something is false, it is not from God. If it is false, it is from Satan. That is what the Bible tells us and in the grand scheme it makes perfect sense to me.

 

All I can do is keep trying. I picked up the bible last night and began with matthew in the new testement. I want to start at the beginning of somthing so I've chosen this route. No one picking anything out for me. Just what I decide.

The only bad thing is I can't read for long because of this stupid MM! Time, I got. And when questions arise, guess what? I have a wealth of information right here! Just one more good reason to have found this site and so many wonderful people on it.