The Lakeland Revival-Do We Think All these Folks Are Crazy?

Discussion in 'Your Religion & Spiritual Corner' started by Henrysullivan, Jul 22, 2008.

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  1. charisse

    charisse Been hanging here for 8 years

    Sarita,

    Yeah, its like that ;)

    Also I feel that, like myself, each man needs to take his own journey as far as his beliefs. One must have a desire to find the truth, and then seek it out. Sure we can help each other here and there but if one really wants to seek most, of the work is done on his own.
     
  2. gardenfish

    gardenfish New Member

    and this might be a personally intimate journey and likely one traveled simply.
     
  3. charisse

    charisse Been hanging here for 8 years

    Very true Paul ;)
     
  4. Mnme

    Mnme Guest

    Deleted.
     
  5. Mnme

    Mnme Guest

    I find this fascinating Jim and would love to learn more. Worthy of a thread on its own.

    Lee
     
  6. catinthehat

    catinthehat New Member

    Henry, I just have one more question and then I hope I can let this rest.

    Suppose your wife was on stage with Bentley, looking for healing. Suppose he kicked her hard in the stomach or in the face with his biker boots, or as has been reported that he's done in the past, punched her so hard in the face that he knocked out one of her teeth or kicked her as she lay on the floor or kicked her legs out from under her as she stood on the stage. What would you think of him then?

    Physically abusing someone like that is against the law and I know for sure if it had happened to someone I love, Bentley would have been carted away in handcuffs.

    Assaulting people the way he does and then preaching about God's love in the next sentence is something I can't wrap my mind around. If you think Bentley is the real deal, if you invite others to watch the Lakeland Revival, if you want others to open their minds to the possibility Bentley is healing thousands, and you believe in him and what he is doing 100%, you must be condoning physical abuse at the hands of Bentley. If you believe in God and everything God is, how can you believe he would tell Bentley to abuse his followers? That isn't the God I know.

    Star
     
  7. jim1884again

    jim1884again advocating baldness be recognized as a disability

    Henry,

    thanks for the thoughtful response--I will only make a couple of comments
    As I have said before, I don't have strong opinion about the totality of events that occur at these revivals--the sociological and psychological concepts I applied in a previous post are valid, but that doesn't necessarily negate the value of whatever is occurring on a more spiritual level--it merely offers an alternative explanation for some of the events, but even so, it doesn't mean something more transcendent isn't happening--it may be, I simply don't know

    The only thing about which I have stated a strong opinion is Bentley who I do not see as the vehicle through which the miraculous occurs--if it is occurring these folks are tapping into a source he does not channel, own or control--but we could debate that until the cows come home--as an aside, I should note I didn't just watch one youtube video that is designed to cast him in a negative light--I probably spent an hour reading about him and watching videos from both his detractors and supporters--in their totality, my observations of him lead to me have a less than favorable opinion of him and this opinion is no doubt influenced by my preconceptions of what a healer, a shepherd, or someone who purports to follow the path of Christ should be like (my further comments would be only slightly different from Star's last post)

    last, I would like to know if the healing of the vet lasts beyond a few days after the event--is there a way to follow up on this?

    On to a related topic

    Intrepid quotes Kant
    It is thoroughly necessary to be convinced of God's existence,
    but it is not quite so necessary that one should demonstrate it.

    to me, it is necessary to prove it to myself and not anyone else
    and maybe that is what he meant by juxtaposing the two statements

    I consider it a life quest of sorts, or to quote the advice of an old friend ("William the Elder", 1918-2004), "make everyday a quest to define spirituality". ( He is the person about whom the short story William and the Angry River was written--it is buried deep in the Writer's Den)

    Lee--PM me if you are interested in knowing more about the hypnosis in psych or the Kreskin experience--I assume that is what got your interest and not the initial assertion that being gullible is different from being suggestible (I am surprisingly gullible given all my life experiences that would appear to mitigate against this, but as one psychologist said to me, "you are the least suggestible person I have ever tried to hypnotize".)
     
  8. Henrysullivan

    Henrysullivan New Member

    Star, in each case, the person to whom the event occurred was healed (that I admit from the lips of Todd Bentley). But I saw the one with the head butt. Afterward, the man's colon cancer pain left him while still on the stage. He was laughing. The next night he came back to testify that his symptoms had vanished. He told Bentley that he did not even feel the head butt. Now you explain that one. And please don't anyone say that this man is crazy, gullible, suggestable. There is no way that if this man had colon cancer and was head-butted in the stomach, and all other things being equal, would have come back on the stage the next night giving his testimony with a smile on his face that his symptoms had vanished if it were not true. If Mr. Bentley had hurt someone, anyone in all these years, he would have been sued, arrested, or as you say, carted away in handcuffs. So why has that not occurred? If any of these people had been hurt, the media would have been all over it. And if anything untoward had happened to any of these people, then why would Bentley use these stories over and over in his sermons? If anything bad had happened to them, you can bet that Freshfire Ministries would have been sued for all that it's got. Look at all the preachers who have done what could be considered far less than Bentley is accused of doing, all the preachers that at the time had the entire Christian community supporting them, but who ended up disgraced or in jail. Yet Bentley lives on.

    As an explanation, I'll tell you since you bring it up, according to Bentley each time something like that has occurred, which has been less than 20 in 10 years of ministry, it has been a test from God, a test of faith. Yes, I know what you are thinking. "Yeah, right." And if I had not seen these healings occur both on TV and any times right there in person; if I did not have a personal experience with a close friend who was himself healed under the tent our first night being there back in June; if I had not actually spoken with several people who have themselves been healed, I would be right there with you. Yes, this looks preposterous; I'll give you that. Yet it is real.

    Each time we have been to Lakeland we have sat in the same place, off to the left of the stage, about 100 feet from the goings on. And right there each time in front of us has been a bald man in a wheelchair, paralyzed for all that we can tell. The last time we were there during July 4th week, during a healing prayer, this man was being prayed on by any number of folks trying to get him to be able to move his hands or legs. I'll tell you; it was really gut-wrenching to watch. We all extended whatever meager prayers to him that we could summon and nothing happened for him. Thatis tough to behold. But he remained cheerful. As it turns out, this man has been there every night since the first of June. And finally, on this past Saturday night, after the healing prayers, lo and behold this man is on the stage in his wheelchair. He is moving his hands and fingers and finally had feeling in his legs, albeit pain, but feeling nonetheless. This man is a testimony to faith. And we watched him suffer to bring about any movement at all amd have so each time we've been there.

    Another man that night had MS and has not been able to move his legs or hands for several years. Right there on the stage, he was moving both. His own expressions indicate that either this fellow ought to get an Oscar for his performance, or he was being touched by a power not apparent to those watching. Yes, you can say that these folks are just all put up to this. You can say that they are under the influence of suggestion. But that is like suggesting to someone who has vertigo that they are not having it and have the vertigo seem to cease. That just cannot happen by sugggestion. And having spoken to several of these folks, there is no way that these people are in cohutes with Todd Bentley. There is no way that this man with MS would have put himself in a wheelchair and come up on that stage and testify to his MS, testify to the paralysis he had in his limbs, and then demonstrate movement in his arms and legs if he were not being affected by healing. What would his friends at home say if he had done something like that?

    Although folks here and elsewhere, by and large, will not believe this, the preponderance of the evidence for anyone who has been taking this in and been there to witness it inperson is absolutely overwhelming. Every christian who has answered this thread believes that God can heal this sick. What mystifies me is why they would not believe it when they see it. What would God have to do to get someone to believe that He is actually doing what Christians believe He can do if when they actuially witness it, they don't believe their eyes? I don't know how to answer that. Again, I suppose it goes to faith. It's easy to say one has faith on Sunday in church; but Christain faith goes beyond Sunday. It goes on every day, all day long, and in every circumstance. I do not say that folks who do not agree with me do not have faith. I do ask what would have to happen in order for that faith to kick in.

    Believe me, Star. I understand how folks could think this is whoey. Yet there it is, folks being healed right and left, for weeks on end. If you or anyone would have been with me and seen what I have seen, talked with those whom I have talked to, I believe you would more understand why I make a point of bringing this up on this site.

    Again, I understand why folks might feel how they do about all this. Yet there it is, each night, in living color.

    Thanks for posting.

    Hank
     
  9. Henrysullivan

    Henrysullivan New Member

    Jim, I respect your open-mindedness. Unfortunately, I would have no way of knowing how to find this serviceman. Both times I saw him, he was wearing the same football jersey, one with the name, 'C. Johnson' on it. I did what I could reasonably do to verify his story. I did that by speaking to him. While the worship music was playing, which is like a rock concert, he showed me his scars and gave me his full testimony. But as you might understand, he was anxious to get back to dancing. We were just two people out of 4-5000 under the tent that night. That is the way that it is with these things.

    I tell the truth in all that I say here. I would have no reason to do otherwise. And if you would like to speak, I would gladly give you my number if you PM me. I do not make this stuff up.

    Thanks again.

    Hank
     
  10. jim1884again

    jim1884again advocating baldness be recognized as a disability

    Hank--I never thought you fabricated anything--this is an "eye of the beholder" thing and not one where I am questioning your honesty--as you know, two people can witness the same event and draw totally separate conclusions--I don't question that you reported what you witnessed with veracity

    thanks for the prompt response
     
  11. catinthehat

    catinthehat New Member

    Henry,

    Thank you for responding to my post.

    I know you are only reporting what you have seen and what you believe. I've never thought you were making any of it up. We just don't see things the same way and that's okay.

    Star
     
  12. Mnme

    Mnme Guest

    Given that there are so many views here, I wonder if we can come to a consensus of any good attributes from the healing revival. To me the one thing I liked about it is that many are open to healing. I also am curious about Kim's description of 'spriritually hungry people coming together', wondering if that would act like a support group. So rather than focus on what's not to like (and I have to say Todd reminded me of Steve Martin in the movie 'Leap of Faith', making money from people's suffering by providing a 'show'), are there any aspects that you feel are positive in terms of healing in general?
     
  13. Mnme

    Mnme Guest

    I don't know Intrepid, that's what I'm here exploring. :D But maybe at very worst it's a good show that uplifts for the day. I am astounded that people respond to it like they apparently do, but I have to also say I'm somewhat curious. Are we really so open to suggestion that it has a physical response ... like going to a hypnotist to help us? These things intrigue me but I find it hard to get past the 'irk' factor that Todd generates in me (and I don't mean how he looks rather how he acts)/the fear that we are so easily manipulated as a group.

    Did anyone else see 'Leap of Faith'?
     
  14. Trish

    Trish Guest

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  15. Henrysullivan

    Henrysullivan New Member

    Sorry it has taken this long to get back to you. You have made a couple of entries that I would like to respond to. No, I do not make it contentious, but I do want to be clear. According to what I read in Luke, Jesus performed no miracles until after He was filled with the Holy Ghost. That occurred immediately after He was Baptised. In Luke 3:22, immediately after Jesus was Baptised, in the form of a dove the Holy Ghost descended upon Jesus. That is the first mentioning of the Holy Spirit associated with Jesus. So prior to Jesus' baptism, Jesus had no access to the power of the Holy Spirit. It came upon Him immediately afterward. Subsequently, in Luke 4:1, Jesus, being full of the Holy Spirit was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, where He wandered for 40 days and nights, met the devil, etcetera. So according to Luke, at this time Jesus had yet to perform miracles. So according to Luke as well, Jesus did not perform miracles until He had been filled with the Holy Spirit, an act which fell upon Him immediately after His baptism. Here again are the key verses:

    Luke 4:1
    And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,

    Luke 4:14
    And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.

    And in John, Jesus let's it be known that He can only do those things His Father shows Him to do. Jesus indicates that He receives virtual operating instructions from the Father; He sees the Father do these things, and then these things 'also doeth the Son likewise.' Here's the verse:

    John 5:19 (King James Version)

    19Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

    So it was only after the Holy Spirit fell upon Jesus that Jesus could 'see' any of these works that He was to perform for the Father. The Holy Spirit is therefore Jesus' direct connection to the Father, through which Jesus both saw what to do and performed what He saw. This according to Luke and John. Acts chapter 10 confirms that shortly after Jesus' baptism, God anointed Him with the Holy Ghost and power saying:

    37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;

    38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
    Notice that verse 38 says that Jesus went about doing good and healing for God was with him, God being 'with him' no doubt in the form of the Holy Ghost.

    I can see no inconsistency between the two Gospels or those books with Acts chapter 10. And in fact, these three books seem perfectly consistent with one another. So for all of these verses to be true, and we must have faith that they are, then Jesus did not perform the miraculous of His own power, He performed the miraculous only by virtue of the gift of the power of the Holy Spirit, which occurred immediately after baptism by John the Baptist. JUst as importantly, on the day of Pentecost, that same power was given to the apostles. In John 14:12, Jesus told them that they would receive the same power that He used, saying:

    "Verily, Verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. (St. John 14:12) So according to Jesus, Christ not only worked miracles himself, but gave power to others to use as well.

    Matthew describes Jesus' operating instructions to His disciples that "And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
    Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give."
    As the apostles went, they brought in more and more apostles. That power was given to all of them freely. There is no end to that, according to the Bible, at least none that I am aware of, nor these folks who engage in Biblical healing by faith in Lakeland and elsewhere. And as you can see, as strange as it may seem, that power even extends to raising the dead.

    I hope that I have cleared up anything that I left unsure with my previous entry.

    Regarding whether Jesus was God or Man walking on Earth, it seems to me pretty clear that He was both. He was conceived of the Holy Ghost, God, and born of the virgin Mary, Man, God and Man in one package. But although He was God, it is not given information that He, Himself, had any ability to perform the miraculous prior to being filled with the Holy Spirit. If He could, He chose not to. But Jesus Himself stated plainly in the above verse that He can do nothing of Himself, but what He saw the Father do first. Jesus did not say that He may not do these things; He said He cannot do these things. That indicates that it was not a matter of permission from God, but a lack of power and ability on Jesus' part to perform miracles on His own. I think it is significant that Jesus used the word can, not may in His statement. To have used 'may' would have changed the entire meaning of not only this verse, but also affect the commission of the apostles and how they themselves used the power of the Holy Spirit after the Pentecost.

    As I have said before, if there is something I am missing here, if another interpretation can be supported, I am open to learning something beyond what I have written here. Please, you or anyone, correct me if I am mistaken. I do want to know the truth. That is my objective, nothing else. My ego will not be bruised.

    MW, I apologize for not being as clear as I should have been in my previous post referred above.

    Hank
     
  16. Henrysullivan

    Henrysullivan New Member

    Just a question: Do you believe that you could be placebo'ed into believing that you are not experiencing vertigo, when in fact you are?
     
  17. Henrysullivan

    Henrysullivan New Member

    I believe Kim's description is more accurate than to call this a 'healing revival.' Yes, healing is performed; but that is not every night. Many nights a sermon is given. Healing miracles really bring in the crowds; but that is only one aspect of this. To truly understand, one must look at this wholistically. That's what you do with DBL. You do not go after healing, you go after the whole body, mind and spirit, and as a result, healing occurs. In that one respect, this is very much the same thing.

    And it's not just about salvation either. Rather, it is about the Kingdom of God, the whole package, bringing the Kingdom of God to Earth as it is in Heaven. In God's Kingdom, death does not occur; infirmity does not occur; strife does not occur. So if one lives in the Kingdom of God, one is well and one has eternal, happy life. That is what the Lord's Prayer is all about:

    Our Father, who art in heaven,
    hallowed be thy name.
    Thy Kingdom come,
    thy will be done,
    on earth as it is in heaven

    Give us this day our daily bread.
    And forgive us our trespasses,
    as we forgive those who trespass against us.
    And lead us not into temptation,
    but deliver us from evil.
    For thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory, for ever and ever.
    Amen

    "Daily bread" refers to eating of the bread, the flesh of Jesus. In so doing, Jesus' spirit lives within us. Jesus refered to His flesh as 'bread.' The Kingdom is 'for ever and ever,' thus when one lives in the Kingdom of God, one has everlasting life.

    What I describe here briefly is what the Lakeland Revival is all about, a wholistic servicing of God's will on Earth. That is the attribute to which you refer. All else derives from that one attribute.

    What I just wrote may take some study. If you really want to understand, I hope you will spend some time with it.

    Hank
     
  18. Henrysullivan

    Henrysullivan New Member

    Where I intended to go- MW, you make an excellent point. To clarify, this thread is about healing. People on this site need healing. The vast majority of anything I write on this site has to do with healing; this is no different. But within that subject matter, when one applies faith to the possibilities, then with that comes the meaning of faith. It is unavoidable. So yes, this may seem to go all over the place; but it is only because the application of faith, the origin and use of faith, is such a broad topic.

    Confusing the OT withthe NT- I agree with Matthew completely; but one aspect that I think you may be confusing is that the OT prophesy included the new law of redemption being added to the old law of the OT, rewriting the old law of the OT. So yes, Jesus came to fulfill the old law, but in fulfilling prophesy established the new law outdating the old law.

    And to say that it's up to us to prove you wrong when you have not proven yourself right is nothing more than cop-out, really--it's how a person who cannot answer responds. I do not believe that you read, or at least understood, what I wrote. No, this is no cop-out. The subtopic referred in my statement was the assertion that Jesus subscribed to the healing touch technique. Well, I don't really know what that is, but plainly if that were the case then it would be written in the Bible somewhere. I have not found it, nor do I believe that you will be able to find it. So in absence of any reference that we can find, then it is up to the person who made the assertion to prove it, not me to disprove it. That would be proving a negative, which is logically impossible. So it is not up to me to disprove it, nor you, nor anyone else. So no, I have not cop-out. The only one who even has the ability to cop-out on this is the person who made the assertion in the first place. Thus far I have seen no attempt to verify that assertion. That does not necessarily mean cop-out; but it could.

    I really do my best to stay clear on these things. And what I just clarified is plain from a reading of my previous statement, the one you referred to, if read carefully. So for that reason I disagree with you. I indeed responded 'as a person who answers' would respond, not as 'one who cannot answer.'

    Thank you for giving me the fodder to clarify that for anyone who might have felt the same way you did.

    Hank
     
  19. MedievalWriter

    MedievalWriter Ryan's Rose Pvt Ryan Winslow KIA Iraq 4-2006

    Hank, you've just given us a marvelous, marvelous example of why Schools of Theology exist.

    Theologians argue (defend sides, I mean) all day long, and have for two thousand years. Each church and belief system teaches things as that group feels led by the Holy Spirit.

    You have to back up your assertion if you say that the prophecies regarding Jesus' redemptive acts were 'written into' the OT afterwards. I don't know of a single well-regarded, non-cult belief system that teaches such a thing. There is no evidence of that at all anywhere in the Bible and no, I don't have to prove you wrong. You just 'saying it' doesn't make it right to begin with. Back up your source or I'll call heresy.

    Are you familiar with Apocryphal writings? They're full of Jesus performing miracles as far back as age 4 when He made a bird out of clay and brought it to life. Apocryphal writings were not excluded from the Kings James Version of the Bible because the group that chose the KJV books thought they were wrong, only because they were determined not to be relevant. I'm talking about the true Apocryphal books commonly in use by the Church at that time but excluded by the group working at the direction of King James I(IV) of England, not all the excluded ancient writings that have surfaced since then.

    Acts 10:37 & 38 "The word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the the baptism which John preached: How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him."

    St. Peter was not making a definitive statement about when Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit--how would he know? In this situation in context, he was narrowing down the time frame of information published all throughout Judaea that Cornelius may have heard regarding Jesus. The verse doesn't even read in a way to suggest that Jesus had never been filled with the Holy Spirit from any other time than His conception, or that He had not gone about doing good all His life.

    John 1:30-33 "This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me; for he was before me. And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. And John bare record, saying I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost."

    Baptizeth--present tense. The Holy Ghost said to John the Baptist that Jesus baptized with the Holy Ghost--not would begin to baptize, not would have to have a talk with His Father first for instructions, but who "baptizeth" or "does baptize". "for he was before me..." Can you get clearer evidence that Jesus' divinity had nothing to do with being baptized by John the Baptist?

    John the Baptist knew who Jesus was--his mother and His mother were cousins! This situation, in context, showed how God revealed the true Nature of Jesus to John the Baptist and when it was revealed to John the Baptist and that's what John the Baptist is saying.

    Why is it so important to try to 'prove' that Jesus wasn't who He really was until some point in his adulthood? Maybe we could help you if we understood that.

    Surely--you don't mean--that you feel like you have no Biblical authority to heal unless Jesus wasn't divine until He was baptised??

    Say it ain't so, Hank!
     
  20. Henrysullivan

    Henrysullivan New Member

    "You have to back up your assertion if you say that the prophecies regarding Jesus' redemptive acts were 'written into' the OT afterwards."

    MW, I did not say what you said I said. Read it again. I said nothing about post-dating entries into the OT. Here's what I said, "the OT prophesy included the new law of redemption being added to the old law of the OT, rewriting the old law of the OT. So yes, Jesus came to fulfill the old law, but in fulfilling prophesy established the new law outdating the old law."

    Prior to Jesus and the law of redemption, what in Romans is refered to as the law of the Spirit of life, there was only the law of sin and death, that law from the Old Testament. I suppose that means that folks who lived prior to Jesus, folks who were under the law of the Old Testament, because they were sinners, at the end of their lives, their souls just died. But Jesus came to earth to change all that. At the time of the atonement, the law of sin and death from the Old Testament became amended, superceded, you pick the best word, by the law of the spirit of life, redemption, allowing men who adhere to that new law to overcome the law of sin and death, the OT law, and in doing so live an everlasting life. Here is my source, Romans, Chapter 8, no heresay here:

    1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

    So no, I have not said, nor meant to say, that "the prophecies regarding Jesus' redemptive acts were 'written into' the OT afterwards." I did not say that and I did not mean that. You used ' ' marks, denoting, I suppose, a quotation, but it was no quotation from me. So I do not know where you might have gotten that. What I said was what I said. What you said I said, was not what I said.

    If we are going to talk about the Bible, and if we are to have any commom ground at all, then we must agree that the Bible is the Word of God. In so doing, we must also agree that it is the only Word of God. I do not know how to respond to your invoking the Apocryphal writings. I do not know how to respond to your question asking how Peter knew that Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit, other than to answer that by golly, this is the Word of God, MW. Either it is true, and in that respect it is all true, or it is false and it is all false. If any one aspect of this Book is false, then the whole loses integrity and the whole Book is false. The integrity of the Bible requires that every sentence, every utterance, is true. So if you believe in the Bible, then you believe in the entire Bible. We are given no lattitude to pick and choose which portions we believe. That is not in the deal. We accept the whole truth of the Bible, or we deny it. So what can you even mean by asking how someone knew something that he wrote in the Bible? Heck, if nothing else, God told him. After all, its the Word of God. Does that answer the question? Who says the Apocryphal writings are the Word of God? Not me. Are you saying that? What's your source? If you can't find one, I'm calling heresay. :)

    Regarding John 1:30:33, here is the account according to Matthew:

    11I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

    'shall baptize,' future tense. I suppose that you and I could call that one a draw except that 'baptizeth' could also be meant to convey the inifinitive of the verb. That would cover all the possible conjugations. My reference is definitely in the future tense. But really, this one seems a bit over the edge to be arguing.

    The importance of all this lies in the commission of the apostles and whether that commission is available to us today. If it was the Holy Spirit performing Jesus' miracles and not Jesus Himself, then Jesus acted as a man and the exact same power that Jesus used in practice, as a man, was and is the power that was given to the apostles on Pentecost. And that same power, the power that Jesus used, according to the Bible, would still be available for us to use today. According to those who invoke the Bible to heal by faith, at least in Lakeland and other related venues, that is the power that they use, the power of the Holy Spirit handed down the apostles on Pentecost. If this power is available to us today, the same power Jesus used, that would be quite a good thing for us to know. That is my point, my point in all of this.

    Now please read what I just wrote again. I say that because you seem prone to misquoting me when you respond. I don't mean that in a mean way; but that is twice you misquote me. (Note I use 'misquote' in the infinitive, not the present.)
     

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