question for John of Ohio

There are a number of suppliers of the elements in my regimen (http://www.zoominternet.net/~kcshop/JOH.pdf). I personally use VitaCost for most of my VMS (vitamins, minerals, and supplements) purchases because this firm has very good prices and has high product purity standards.

For the lemon bioflavonoids, I prefer the Nutrition Express product. It has proven more effective than any other.

For my non-Meniere's VMSs, I also purchase from Swanson Health Products. They, too, have good prices and high quality products.

--John of Ohio

 

Add gradually, watch your stomach

 

Welcome littlebird! Don't be shy about the questions--that's what this place is for.

 

The cautions regarding the putative (but unsubstantiated) hazards of vinpocetine can be found for virtually all such "unregulated" supplements. There is only one side effect those with Meniere's should be concerned about concerning vinpocetine (and I mention this in the regimen write-up): http://www.zoominternet.net/~kcshop/JOH.pdf

For a few, vinpocetine causes tachycardia, increased heartbeat rate. I've never had a report of any of the other putative vinpocetine side effects.

And yes, when having surgery, or taking any anticoagulent drug (such as warfarin), no one should take ANY vitamin, mineral, or supplement --- without getting specific authorization from the physician who prescribed the anticoagulent ("blood thinner").

The claim is that "vinpocetine might weaken the immune system." Not a shred of evidence for this. The key word here, as with so many "warnings," is "...might...." Someone is just making things up, to "be safe." Let's see the lab or clinical research that indicates immune system suppression. I know of none.

On the other question, would supplements purchased locally be "as good?" Well, yes, if they are the same. Often, however, products list not just a main ingredient (say, "lysine"), but they also include other ingredients which may dilute the intended ingredient's function. Here's what to do. Pull up the recommended regimen component on the Internet, and check its ingredients and dosage sizes closely. Then match those with any locally-purchased product. If it's "apples to apples," all is well.

Case in point is the lemon bioflavonoids. There are lots of "citrus bioflavonoids" on the market, and we all know that lemons are citrus fruits. Therefore, "lemon bioflavonoids" and "citrus bioflavonoids" ought to be the same and have the same Meniere's outcomes. But not so by any means. Only true lemon bioflavonoids do anything positive for Meniere's; and the best product is the Nutrition Express one.

--John of Ohio

 

Go forward as you determine, of course.

But, for me, I make medical decisions based upon actual evidence, not unsubstantiated or un-referenced "opinions" --- which is exactly what the cautions regarding vinpocetine's supposed bad effects on the immune system are. I searched at length to find any research on vinpocetine's affects on the immune system, and could find not a single research article on the matter.

Someone is making this up --- out of a concern for "safety," of course. But I want to see the actual evidence. So far, there is none.

Who knows? Chronic ingestion of vinpocetine might make you bald, wrinkle your skin, or suppress your desire for green vegetables, too. No reports on these hazards yet published, however. One can never be too cautious. Perhaps one should stick to only FDA-approved drugs, where side effects are so infrequent and minor.

--John of Ohio

 

I saw this reeriwinkle And it may be why immune function gets mentioned by some. However, i just googled and I know that not every medical study is on google.
The Commission E of the German government states that some animal studies suggest periwinkle could suppress the immune system.23
23. Blumenthal M, Busse WR, Goldberg A, et al, eds. The Complete German Commission E Monographs: Therapeutic Guide to Herbal Medicines. Austin: American Botanical Council and Boston: Integrative Medicine Communications, 1998:364.

 

Sorry for the snarkiness.

I'm a very competent biologist. I know medical terms, physiological processes, molecular chemistry, etc.

No, it's not dangerous to "ignore such advisories," after one has made a very diligent effort to ascertain upon which such advisories have been based, and found absolutely no evidence whatsoever for such cautions.

In fact, dozens of research and clinical investigations of vinpocetine have been conducted and published on vinpocetine, in both animals and humans. Not a one of them has ever reported an immune system problem.

I invite all readers here to do their own due diligence on the matter. I'd be extremely interested to learn of any real evidence of immune system dysfunction caused by vinpocetine. Hundreds of thousands of people take vinpocetine; without a single reported case of immune system complications.

There is simply no biochemical basis upon which the vinpocetine molecule interferes with any immune system component, whether T-cells, cytokines, antigens, or any other. It is a complete scientific mystery as to how anyone can propose that vinpocetine interferes in any way with normal immunology.

If this were a problem of any history or reality, why wouldn't the vendors of vinpocetine post this as a caution on the product labels? If there is an authentic, demonstrated, evidence-based hazard for immune system disruption, any sale or promotion of vinpocetine products without clear guidance regarding the hazard, no matter how small or infrequent, would incur all sorts of legal liabilities. Vinpocetine vendors do not regard immune disruption as a problem, and neither do I; because there is simply not a bit of evidence for such, either in practice, nor in biochemical theory.

WebMD on lysine says this: "Lysine is POSSIBLY SAFE for most people when taken by mouth at recommended doses for up to one year, or when applied to the skin short-term. It can cause side effects such as stomach pain and diarrhea."

In WebMD's bold letters (not mine), the lysine in my regimen that suppresses herpes activity is "POSSIBLY SAFE." Not "probably safe."

Of course, thousands of people with cold sores and other herpes infections have been taking this chronically for many years, and you will simply not find any reports of lysine toxicity. It's "POSSIBLY SAFE," therefore. But, maybe it's not. Why would the WebMD author state the caution in pure capital letters? One should be alarmed, it would seem.

And who knows what the bioflavonoid eriocitrin, the major efficacious component of the lemon bioflavonoid component of the regimen is? Is it really safe? One website claims it is: http://www.neohesperidin-dc.com/pages/eriocitrin.htm.

The author claims, "It is certified that there is no problem with a safety to humans. It is negative in the mutagenicity test according to Rec-assay or Ames assay."

But at the end of his page he says, "Warning. Above information is only knowledge,not an instruction of usage for this product. The owner of this webiste should not be responsible for any damage because of misuse of the product."

The Materials Safety Data Sheet for eriocitrin (http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/MSDS/MSDS/DisplayMSDSPage.do?country=US&language=en&productNumber=45714&brand=SIGMA&PageToGoToURL=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sigmaaldrich.com%2Fcatalog%2Fproduct%2Fsigma%2F45714%3Flang%3Den ) on page 6, simply states that health hazards caused by this molecule have "no data available."

Perhaps lemon bioflavonoids are hazardous. No safety data are published.

In summary, there simply are no double-blind clinical safety tests for any of the components of my regimen, that I know of. Nor are there any reports of significant hazards, either, other than those few reported on the product labels or in the component listing in my regimen document.

Crucially, as I advise in the document, don't undertake the regimen without first consulting a medical professional. Ask your physician about the negative effects of vinpocetine on the immune system. His or her answer will be interesting.

--John of Ohio

 

Vinpocetine is not periwinkle, the plant Vinca minor. It is chemically derived from the plant, but thereafter has no molecules found in the plant. Any toxicity caused by ingestion of Vinca minor cannot be caused by vinpocetine. There is no vinpocetine in V. minor.

--John of Ohio

 

If this were a problem of any history or reality, why wouldn't the vendors of vinpocetine post this as a caution on the product labels

I don't know why you are not aware why VMS and Herbal manufacturers do not put warnings,
answer:
They are not required too by law. But we have been through this discussion before.

http://www.priory.com/med/vinpocetine.htm
A patient with agranulocytosis induced by vinpocetine is presented. Agranulocytosis was detected after vinpocetine therapy was started, and did not occure during a two year follow up without vinpocetine. Granulocyte-colony stimulating factor (G-CSF) therapy is recommended for the early recovery of agranulocytosis. Bone marrow aspiration biopsy showed remarkable reduction in the number of myelocytic cell types as well as erythroblasts, suggesting that a toxic, but not an immune, mechanism is involved in the pathogenesis of vinpocetine-induced agranulocytosis.

Introduction

Drug-induced agranulocytosis is a life-threatening disorder that leads to a selective profound granulocytopenia. Many drugs including neuroleptics (Lieberman et al, 1988), anti-thyroid medications (Meyer et al, 1994), analgesics, phenothiazine derivatives (Pisciotta, 1990) and anti-inflammatory drugs are known to induce agranulocytosis.

http://www.med.nyu.edu/content?ChunkIID=21841
Vinpocetine inhibits blood platelets from forming clots, 1 and for this reason it could cause problems if it is taken by individuals with bleeding problems, during the period immediately before or after surgery or labor and delivery, or in combination with medications or natural substances that also affect platelet activity, such as:
•Aspirin
•Clopidogrel (Plavix)
•Ticlopidine (Ticlid)
•Pentoxifylline (Trental)
•Garlic
•Ginkgo
•Policosanol
• High-dosage vitamin E

The drug warfarin (Coumadin) affects blood clotting, but not through actions on platelets. One study found only a minimal interaction between warfarin and vinpocetine. Interestingly, it was in the direction of decreased clotting. 14 Nonetheless, combination therapy with vinpocetine and warfarin should not be attempted except under the supervision of a physician.

Safety in pregnant or nursing women, young children, or those with severe liver or kidney disease has not been established.

Interactions You Should Know About

If you are taking:
• Blood-thinning drugs, such as aspirin , clopidogrel (Plavix), ticlopidine (Ticlid), or pentoxifylline (Trental): Simultaneous use of vinpocetine might cause bleeding problems.
• Natural substances with blood-thinning properties, such as garlic , ginkgo , policosanol , or high-dose vitamin E : Simultaneous use of vinpocetine might in theory cause bleeding problems.
•Warfarin (Coumadin): Vinpocetine might adversely affect the blood-thinning activity of warfarin (Coumadin).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vinpocetine is an extract from the seeds of the periwinkle plant (Vinca minor)

 

No, vinpocetine is NOT an "extract" from Vinca minor. To claim that it is is simply to express an ignorance of the chemistry of the molecule. Look it up: "Vinpocetine (brand names: Cavinton, Intelectol; chemical name: ethyl apovincaminate) is a semisynthetic derivative of the vinca alkaloid vincamine (sometimes described as "a synthetic ethyl ester of apovincamine"), an extract from the lesser periwinkle plant."

It is a chemically-changed derivative of the vincamine molecule found in Vinca minor. Once again, there is no vinpocetine in V. minor, and none can be extracted from that plant. The precurser molecule vincamine is found in V. minor and is extracted therefrom. But it must be chemically altered to make the vinpocetine molecule.

Any concrn that consumption of the periwinkle plant, or any of its authentic extractions (before being chemically altered) causes potential immune system problems is probably warrented. But vinpocetine is not periwinkle. There may be clinical evidence that periwinkle consumption causes immune system disruption. But if that is so, it can't be because of vinpocetine. V. minor simply has no vinpocetine molecules. Those are made in a lab by chemically altering vincamine molecules. Compare apples to oranges; or in this case, periwinkle to vinpocetine. They share no biological components.

The lone, single case of vinpocetine-induced agranulocytosis is irrelevant to this discussion, which centers on an imputed immune system toxicity induced by vinpocetine.

Is there any significance to the fact that the NYU Langone Medical Center website referenced on vinpocetine safety failed to mention any immune system complications?

--John of Ohio

 

Do you have any published works or articles I can read to substantiate these claims.

 

Do you have any published works or articles I can read to substantiate these claims.

No, I wish not to disclose my name. As with many others here, I wish to retain my anonymity.

I am a retired advanced placement biology teacher, having taught biology to many students who gained scholarships and went on to advanced degrees. I have two areas of particular biological expertise, where I’ve made significant contributions. I am presently employed part-time by a federal science agency as a consultant. I am the author and web-master for a scientific association where I present papers and webpages on cogent scientific matters related to the scientific association that owns the site.

I am a contributing author on a non-technical, popular scientific publication related to my second area of expertise. This book is in press and will soon be available to the public.

I won a number of awards for my teaching, including the state’s Outstanding Biology Teacher Award. I created and operated a significant student research program where my students conducted authentic science research in local industries, university, and professional laboratories. My students consistently won top honors at state science research competitions, from which many received significant academic scholarships.

My biology teaching program was exceptionally successful because I continually conferred with biology and chemistry professors at local universities, asking what they wanted my students to know and be able to do when they took science-major classes at their institutions. I created an entire two-year advanced placement biology curriculum. Instead of conventional texts, I created detailed graphic and digital curriculum resources. My students who went on to college science courses earned high grades in those courses, including non-majors. Numerous times I had college professors contact me regarding the competencies of my students.

I wrote a detailed science research manual, telling high school biology students how both conduct authentic, statistically-reliable research; and how to properly and clearly present that research in both written research papers and oral presentations. Because of all of this, my students stood way above their colleagues at other high schools. My program gained state-wide acclaim in the universities in my state.

I have been an American Association for the Advancement of Science member since the early 70s; and I read each issue of Science. I am a functioning and contributing member of several other scientific and professional organizations. I present extremely interesting and well-received public presentations on a number of contemporary and historical science topics

--John of Ohio

 

Wow, John that is quite impressive, you just made me feel like a stupid inferior non educated know nothing ignorant sleezy lazy looser piece of shit.

Impressive!

 

AFAIK any drug, herb etc with Anti-Inflammatory properties weakens and suppresses the immune system and Vinpocetine is an Anti-Inflammatory agent.

 

AFAIK any drug, herb etc with Anti-Inflammatory properties weakens and suppresses the immune system and Vinpocetine is an Anti-Inflammatory agent.

Vicki,

Please substantiate your contention that anti-inflamatories weaken or suppress the immune system. Everything I've read about anti-inflamatories, such as curcumin extract, shows no adverse affects on the immune system.

I've read both the abstracts and papers on a number of studies on vinpocetine anti-inflamatory therapies, and not a one mentions any adverse immune suppression.

Can you post some reliable information on how anti-inflamatory drugs and supplements (supplements in particlular) interfere with normal immune function? I've never encountered this notion.

--John of Ohio