Anyone have any info on Vitamin K2? Is it ok to take as a supplement, or do we need to eat foods with it? If a supplement, what is the best brand?
K-2 is an important vitamin D-3 cofactor. Without sufficient K-2, D-3 simply is not as effective. Supplementation is the most consistent and effective way to get enough K-2. The benefits of K-2 are extremely positive, including proper allocation or partitioning of calcium in the body, keeping it in the bones and out of the arteries. And, without D-3, K-2 is not very helpful. Along with the K-2, take 5000 IU of D-3. Magnesium is also a crucial D-3 cofactor. Take a magnesium supplement (there are a number of them; try them see which is agreeable). This is the K-2 I take: http://www.vitacost.com/vitacost-vitamin-k2-mk-7-with-nattokinase-100-mcg-90-softgels-2 --John of Ohio
One soft-gel per day, as per label. Do a thorough web search on the benefits of vitamin K-2. Prevents or drastically reduces hardening of the arteries, lots more (especially when used with adequate vitamin D-3, 5000 IU). If this could have been patented (is natural, so can't be) big pharmas would have been pushing and selling this big-time. We get it at low cost. --John of Ohio
Specifically and directly neither vitamins D-3 or K-2 affect Meniere's. Consequently, to keep things as simple as possible, I don't list either in my regimen write-up. (http://www.zoominternet.net/~kcshop/JOH.pdf) But, in fact, adequate serum levels of these two vitamins dramatically and powerfully support the immune system. That can suppress viral problems, whether colds or flues (I haven't had either now for over a decade with the vitamins), or more specifically, a well-functioning immune system simply stops viral diseases. I've mentioned this question before. I'd sure like to see an accurate study of the prevalence of Meniere's disease in various countries around the world. For example, there is a much higher incidence of multiple sclerosis in Scotland compared to those who live in London. And Londoners have a higher MS rate than people living in Madrid. Lastly, in tropical areas of the world, at least where people expose normal amounts of skin to the sun, MS is rather rare. Without supplementation (and no, a glass of mild doesn't provide much at all), natural vitamin D is synthesized by sunlight in exposed skin. Scotland is in the north. For half the year, days are pretty short, and the sun never gets high in the sky. Conversely, Madrid and tropical areas are very sunny. People living at those lower latitudes simply synthesize much more vitamin D in their skin --- and have much less viral and immune-system diseases. So, is the rate of Meniere's greater in Alaska and Minnesota than in Florida and New Mexico? If so, it's the sun factor, which makes much more vitamin D in the sunnier locations. And to work most efficiently, vitamin D needs vitamin K-2 as a functional co-factor. --John of Ohio
John please look at my post here regarding MAV/Topamax/Vitamin D/Calcium/Magnesium http://menieres.org/talk/index.php?topic=1845.15 Maybe you can tie the loose ends and solve the puzzle for MAV people as well. I don't think it's that hard to crack
The question, of course, is if adequate supplementation of vitamins D-3 and K-2, along with magnesium might be therapeutic for migraine-associated-vertigo, MAV. The biochemistry and molecular reactions and kinetics of the many involved tissues and organs in MAV are, even for professionals, essentially un-described, unknown. The only way to determine this would be to try a lengthy period of supplementation. Because the involved tissues may be inflamed or physiologically disturbed, it most likely will take weeks or months for normalizing healing to occur. At the end of two or three weeks of adequate supplementation, nothing is likely to change. It will probably take many weeks or months for things to get normally restored --- if at all. So, what to take? For vitamin D-3, start (at a minimum) with 5000 IU a day. Actually, 10,000 IU for two or three weeks, as a loading dose, would be appropriate. A favorable form of vitamin K-2, one a day, is next. I find this product valuable: http://www.vitacost.com/vitacost-vitamin-k2-mk-7-with-nattokinase-100-mcg-90-softgels-2 Magnesium can be problematic. The common, cheap form is magnesium oxide. But it is not always well-absorbed, and as with magnesium citrate (much better absorbed), both can cause diarrhea in some people. In most cases, it's probably best to start with magnesium citrate, in a split tablet, and work up to larger, label-indicated amounts. Personally, I take my magnesium transdermally. I squirt 10 spritzes of the following product every morning on my bare thighs, rub it in, and let it dry for a minute or two. The magnesium ion is fully absorbed, but doesn't cause gastrointestinal issues. This is a saturated solution of magnesium chloride: http://www.swansonvitamins.com/swanson-ultra-dr-barbara-hendels-magnesium-oil-3-8oz-bottles-liquid --John of Ohio
John, I'm going to try the magnesium oil. I found out a year ago that I had a low mag level, at 1.4. I've been taking supplements for a year, now up to 1600 mgs a day and my level is still low at 1.6. The low side of normal is 1.8. The magnesium oxide is really messing up my stomach. I didn't realize how low mag levels can mess a person up so much. My BP was in the stroke range, blood sugars were high, had cramping in my calves and thighs and at other times my legs felt like rubber. I felt weak and was having PVC's one right after the other, cholesterol was high and I had elevated liver enzymes. I had an ultrasound of my liver and it showed a fatty liver. Most everything is back to normal now, but I'm still having the PVC's, though not as frequently, and I still feel weak. I found, through research, magnesium comes in a liquid form, in a picometer sized dose. Directions call for it to be taken twice a day in a quarter teaspoon dose. It supposedly doesn't cause diarrhea, but reviews from people who have taken it say it's like taking battery acid or rat poison, as far as the taste goes. They report diluting it in all kinds of beverages, but nothing hides the taste. I haven't ordered any, for that reason. If I get the oil I wonder if I should stop the pill form supplements and how many sprays I should use? My PCP is useless. I've talked to her about the magnesium oil and she didn't even know there was such a thing. She asked me if it was prescription or OTC. I've even tried soaking in epsom salts, but I have to use so that much a five pound bag doesn't last very long. PCP says we'll just keep increasing the mag ox, but I'm not willing to take more than I'm taking now. I don't see the point when it passes through me before it can even be absorbed.
Magnesium chloride solutions ("magnesium oil") are commonly used for massaging and smoothing the skin (in Europe, at least). It is virtually impossible to "get too much" of the Mg ion into the body in this manner. Apparently, a few people are allergic to dermal applications. If a rash develops, stop using the substance. If you have severe magnesium deficiency, 10 squirts (as mentioned above) may not be enough. You may have to use 10 squirts (5 on each thigh) twice a day. Give it a try at this higher dose for a few weeks, and see if serum Mg levels increase. Can't hurt, and is relatively cheap. No, most primary care physicians have never heard of "magnesium oil." On the face of it, they would think it to be some oil-based cream or lotion, given the name. It's called an "oil" because it does have a slightly smooth, oily consistency when spread over the skin. That lasts only as long as it takes the water in the solution (of just three components: pure water, the Mg ion, and the chloride ion) to evaporate. Magnesium chloride, magnesium citrate, magnesium glycinate, magnesium orotate, magnesium aspartate, magnesium lactate, magnesium malate, and magnesium threonate are all better, more bio-available forms of magnesium then magnesium oxide. All are available from Swanson's Health. http://www.swansonvitamins.com/q?kw=magnesium All of these are better absorbed and have reduced diarrhea compared to magnesium oxide. Most physicians have little or no training, understanding, or knowledge of over the counter supplements, even common mineral supplements such as those with magnesium. And, sadly, most physicians fail to recognize the widespread magnesium deficiency of their patients, or the multitude of diseases and conditions worsened by Mg deficiency. The Mg ion is the central metallic ion of over 300 human enzymes. If the ion is in low concentration, essential enzymes which control essential biochemical reactions in the body are insufficiently active. Proper enzyme-mediated reactions are reduced or absent, with consequent physiological dysfunctions. Americans (and moderns across the globe) are highly prone to three profound deficiencies: insufficient vitamin D-3, insufficient vitamin K-2, and low dietary and serum levels of magnesium. --John of Ohio
John, thanks for your suggestions. I take about 1000 IU vitamin D drops called (Ddrops brand) almost everyday and occasionally I take 150-200 magnesium glycinate/lysinate chelate by "Doctors Best" for relaxing my muscles and sleep. I'm a bit afraid of taking vitamin K2 because it's so newly researched and I heard some people have some bad heart reactions to it. I would rather just have Natto in its whole form with the beans and goo etc. but it's hard to find. Same with Vitamin D, I believe that not enough research is there to be taking 5000-10 000 IUS per day orally as that may have negative side effects over the long term. My belief with supplements is to get them from nature as much as possible because that's how we've been getting our nutrients throughout centuries, through food, water and sun. Also when it's in whole food form, all the cofactors are naturally built into the fruit/vegetable/grain/meat in perfect proportions because those fruit and meat have been surviving just as well throughout centuries. I hope it make sense. These days one day they come out saying Vitamin D for example shown to be good for you then the next day they come with an article saying Vitamin D through oral consumption or at high levels per day may not be as good as we thought. So I feel like isolated supplements can be a gamble at times, and yet I do take them and only a few actually ever help or make a difference. I'm very leery of K2. Sometimes I've taken magnesium and the next day I got irregular heartbeats for a few days.
My question is, would taking vitamin K rich foods be helpful? I read or heard that from K it can seperate to K2 and K4?
There is overwhelming evidence by vitamin D researchers that at any dosage rate less then 10,000 IU vitamin D is without safety concerns. Read closely the information here: http://www.vitamindwiki.com/10,000+IU+vitamin+D+daily+is+safe,+toxicity+start+at+150+ng+(for+monotherapy)%E2%80%93+Jan+2013 Your desire appears to be to gain such nutrients "naturally," without supplementation. Good thought for many or most dietary nutrients. But that approach will leave you grossly deficient in vitamin D, inasmuch as no food item, even those supplemented with vitamin D (such as milk), contain only minimal amounts, just enough (barely) to prevent rickets. Humans never, in any period or location, have gained vitamin D from food sources. They don't have it. Only two ways to get enough vitamin D without supplementation. Expose large areas of bare skin to sunlight when the sun is at least 45 degrees or higher in the sky (anything lower has little or no UV-B rays, which synthesize vitamin D in the skin), or, get inside a ultraviolet-B tanning bed frequently. Today, the best, cheapest, and safest method of getting enough vitamin D is to take a 5000 IU amount each day. It will cost 3 to 5 cents, and will hike your serum vitamin D level to about 30 ng/ml. Many experts (I agree, whence my phrase: "Fifty is Nifty") recommend that we take enough vitamin D to attain a blood level of at least 50 ng/ml. About vitamin K-2. Your chances of getting therapeutic levels of this essential vitamin (so as to stop hardening of the arteries, etc.) from any modern diet is vanishingly small. Yes, throughout the centuries people did get this and other micronutrients from their diets. But, today, modern agricultural soils have been depleted of essential minerals and disrupted by pesticides and unnatural "fertilizers." The classic case of this is iodine deficiency, a long story I won't go into here (but modern American foods have very little bioavailable iodine, hence the large numbers of people with thyroid deficiencies). You can be as leery of K-2 as you'd like. The overwhelming evidence, however, is that adequate K-2 ingestion supports healthful partitioning of calcium ions throughout the body, keeping the calcium in bones, and out of arteries. --John of Ohio
Yes -- if you can find enough of those foods. But virtually no one is able to consume such a diet. Do as you prefer. (Just how will you know you are getting a therapeutic level of vitamin K-2?) My considered preference to to pop a K-2 softgel each day, along with my 5000 IU of vitamin D. I will not have hardening of the arteries, and my bones will stay strong. --John of Ohio
Thanks for your feedback John. I agree that vitamin D through food is difficult to get enough from. What I do is take 1000 IU's sometimes 2000 IU's per day and try to get out and get sun as much as I can when the weather allows it, so I combine the two. Also one key point about Vitamin D supplement is, I read somewhere that the tablets don't get absorbed as well as the liquid form which is why I take less as I'm taking the drops ( http://www.vitaminddrops.com/ ). So having said that, perhaps 5000 IU's is really 2000-3500 IU's that actually gets absorbed. The last time I checked my Vitamin D levels which was probably 2 years ago it was at 34 ng/ml, I should get it checked again. I wonder how it would feel at 50ng/ml. I remember taking 2000IU's of the drops per day for two or three weeks and I felt very strong and in a good mood but then again I had a heavy heartbeat so I stopped taking it at those levels and it went away, just like the magnesium. I have MK-7 from Jarrow Formulas also derived from Natto, been too chicken to take it In the meantime I try to get green vegetables which I admit have hard time incorporating.
One should take vitamin D only in the softgel form, which has the oil-soluble vitamin in a drop or two of vegetable oil. With this, there is complete absorption. If taken in a dry tablet form, be sure to take with an oil- or fat-containing meal. Vitamin D is fat soluble. In summer, when increased amounts are synthesized in the sun-exposed skin, the vitamin D is disolved and absorbed into body fat. But in fall and winter, when the sun is too low in the sky to form any vitamin D, the body relies on the vitamin in body fat. But by December, much or most of that is gone. The immune system requires ample vitamin D to function. In winter, without supplemented vitamin D, it is weak, and cold and flu viruses can then enter and proliferate in the body. That's why colds and flues happen in late fall, winter, and early spring. The conventional explanation (clearly wrong) is that in those periods people are jam-packed in rooms and buildings, where the cold and flu viruses can then be easily transmitted. Nice thought --- but in fact, today, people spend exactly as much time confined in rooms and vehicles in summer as in winter. People get colds and flues not because they are confined closely together; but because their immune systems are weak from a lack of vitamin D photosynthesis. As I've mentioned, my wife and I have been taking 7000 IU of vitamin D now for about a decade, without a single case of flu or cold between us. Not so, of course, for our friends, with whom we've spend many a room-confined hour. Lots and lots of vitamin D info here: http://www.vitamindwiki.com/tiki-index.php --John of Ohio
And I'll add this ponderable note. There is a strong possibility that Meniere's disease might be vitamin D-related. The evidence is clear that the vast majority of Meniere's cases are caused by active herpes virus infections in the inner ear tissues. It's very possible that those infections began because of a weak immune system resulting from inadequate vitamin D. This is not to imply, of course, that ample vitamin D might cure Meniere's. But, it's very possible that sufficient serum vitamin D (probably 50 ng/ml or more) would prevent a herpes virus infection in inner ear tissues. --John of Ohio