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Biofilm Colony Theory on the Causes of Meniere's Syndrome

Discussion in 'Your Living Room' started by PapaJoe, Nov 14, 2018.

  1. PapaJoe

    PapaJoe Member

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    This post is for people with 'classic' MM. I know that some folks are here for other vestibular issues which may or may not be addressed here.

    I had leaky gut for over 30 years (I healed it).
    I three separate dental infections of 40+ years duration.

    I came here in 2009 with diagnosed MM (even had a family history of it).

    During 2009 and 2010, I posted here frequently and during that time I discovered the gut-brain connection. I found I had leaky gut, and healed the leaky gut, and treated for a systemic infection, but I never really got better. In some ways (neuropathy, heart arrhythmia, fatigue) I kept getting worse.

    I finally found the dental biofilm infections which had been growing and festering for 40+ years, one at a time. No pain, no swelling, these were biofilm colony infections of various species. They contain gram negative bacteria, gram positive bacteria, viruses, fungi, et al.

    This isn't a classic infection, where germs attack our body and our immune system reacts. As long as these bacteria, fungi, viruses are inside the biofilm colony, they are protected from the immune system. While part of the colony, the microbes eat glucose (blood sugar) and poop neurotoxins (endotoxins and mycotoxins). When these toxins enter the blood stream, they do trigger the immune system, but in a very non-specific way (general overall inflammation). The biofilm colonies act more like a parasite than a classic infection. They eat our blood sugar and damage us by pooping neurotoxins.

    Over enough years, these biofilm colonies grow and spread, following the blood vessels, and become intertwined in the normal tissue, taking over and damaging the normal tissue, while they continue pumping out more and more of the neurotoxins, damaging nerves.

    About a month ago I found a biofilm colony infection in the skin of my jaw. Without going into the gory details, I found a pocket of jelly like substance which I was able to squeeze of of the pocket. The next day, I drained a shot-glass full of fluid once the immune system had recognized it and reacted to it.

    This pocket of infection isn't too far from the trigeminal nerve. It doesn't take much of an imagination to think that there might be a similar biofilm colony in the area of my vestibular nerve. A biofilm colony will damage tissue, and poop nerve toxins. If you have any skin issues (acne, autoimmune), then this is a possibility.

    The problem is, these biofilm colonies are hard to find. Given the amount of time it takes these biofilm colonies to spread, that argues for a spot source of infection somewhere in the head. The dental area is perfect for these.

    But could chronic sinus infections and/or ear infections also be a a source for these biofilm colonies to spread? Either of them

    In any case, if you thing MM is caused by a virus, you're right. if you think it's cause by a fungus, you're right. It's probably caused by some or all of the above, and your best treatment (anti-virals, anti-fungals, or both) will depend on which microbes are in your personal hell.

    Intersting things about biofilms:
    • They're ubiquitous. They're everywhere in the environment and in the human body.
    • They protect the colony against things that might hurt them, such as antibiotics. It's hard to kill a biofilm colony.
    • Biofilms are neither good nor bad. It depends on where they are found and which species they contain.
    • They're multi-species. Bacteria, viruses and fungi, all living together in harmony.
    • The different microbes can communicate with one another (Quorum Sensing).
    • Different species can exchange genes (genetic mutation) with one another.
    This is the Center for Biofilm Engineering at Montana State University
    Biofilm Basics - Center for Biofilm Engineering | Montana State University

    "The solution in medical biofilms is not so simple, however, since the dose of antibiotic required to kill biofilm bacteria may be high enough to kill the patient!"

    Anyway, let's discuss it. I do a lot of research on PubMed, the NIH clearinghouse for peer-reviewed scientific studies. I'll be glad to show the science behind that I'm saying if you like.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  2. PapaJoe

    PapaJoe Member

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    Biofilms are everywhere.

    Slimy rocks in a stream
    White stuff on your teeth if you don't brush for a day or two
    Slimy stuff in the drain
    That yellow stuff that won't quite scrub off of your drain stopper.

    Biofilms are not bad, unless they are where we don't want them.

    Each year, biofilms cost industry millions in remediation and control.
    On the other hand, industry uses biofilms in many industrial processes.

    Your gut is one big biofilm.
    If the gut biofilm contains beneficial species, it's healthy.
    If the gut biofilm contains harmful species, it's unhealthy and likely to cause health issues.

    Biofilm on a sink strainer:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    Pacifier:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    In this one, Candida Albicans is shown growing in a culture of PMMA (polymethyl methacrylate). PMMA is used in some kinds of dental filing, dentures, and bone cement. Live C. albicans cells are stained green, dead cells are stained red.
    [​IMG]
     
  3. PapaJoe

    PapaJoe Member

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  4. PapaJoe

    PapaJoe Member

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    image.png image.png

    I have 40+ years of dental biofilms, and significant biofilm colony areas in the skin of my face, but the outward skin looks normal, until the folliculitis breaks out.

    These spreading biofilms, given time, could certainly invade the area around the vestibular nerves, and even easier, the trigeminal nerve, which people here have speculated about.
     
  5. solari

    solari MM.org Janitor Staff Member

    Admin Post
    Rather fascinating stuff. Only goes to show how widely varied the causes of Menieres can be.

    I’ll be adding this to our new database I’ve been working on here shortly.

    Thanks for sharing your knowledge and I hope you are doing well!

    Ray
     
  6. PapaJoe

    PapaJoe Member

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    It's been a rough summer, I've been undergoing treatments for my massive dental/facial infections, and the Herxheimer side effects are tough. But I think I'm getting to a state where I can be more stable rather than having to worry about attacks when inflammation gets high.

    Keep reading. This is complicated stuff, and I'm trying to set a solid background.
     
    • Fistbump/thanks Fistbump/thanks x 1
  7. solari

    solari MM.org Janitor Staff Member

  8. PapaJoe

    PapaJoe Member

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    Yep. But it's never just one species. It's almost aways a mix of fungal/bacterial/viral, though there may certainly be a majority specie.

    The current state of identifying pathogens is pretty bad. They look until they identify one, then claim that's the one, when there are probably 100 others that they didn't identify.

    Only a good DNA scan would identify all of the species involved.
     
  9. PapaJoe

    PapaJoe Member

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    FWIW, I found this page over the weekend. This talks about bacterial biofilms of the skin.

    WARNING: A couple of these are pretty gross.


    Bacterial biofilm | DermNet New Zealand

    Mine are similar to this one, though not as large, and I have a bunch of them on my face and neck. Most of them are hidden, and the skin looks normal, until you get an attack of folliculitis. Then cleaning out the wound, you can see the biofilm. | DermNet New Zealand

    You can see how the tissue is damaged. Imagine if one of these is operating near your vestibular nerve?

    eta: to fix 2nd link.
     
  10. PapaJoe

    PapaJoe Member

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    Not a surprise, and that Dr. Nelson paper is the same as one that I've linked on my website since 2010 or so.

    But remember, it's never just the fungus. I do think fungi may be more aggressive than bacteria. Maybe it's a combo of bacteria via mouth/sinus plus Candida from leaky gut.
     
  11. solari

    solari MM.org Janitor Staff Member

    Admin Post
    I'd like to add this to the database under alternative treatments, but I need a good summary (two sentences or so) to use, esp. as how this pertains to helping allay Meniere's Disease. Can you do that since I'm not very familiar with the medium?

    Thanks!
    Ray
     
  12. PapaJoe

    PapaJoe Member

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    How about

    Undiscovered Biofilm Colony Infections may damage the vestibular nerve leading to Meniere's Disease. This leads to a better understanding of the causes, and better ways to prevent MM. Treating for this may help with many symptoms, including vertigo, but it's unclear how or if it will mitigate already existing damage with respect to tinnitus and hearing loss.


    How's that?

    In reality, these BCI's are behind many of mankind's modern diseases. MM just happens to be our little corner of hell.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. solari

    solari MM.org Janitor Staff Member

    Admin Post
    Am curious as there wasn't much detail on this -- how is this sort of thing treated in relation to MM?

    Thanks!
    Ray
     
  14. PapaJoe

    PapaJoe Member

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    There aren't many details because this is me researching hundreds of research papers and drawing conclusions that are 1) logical 2) backed by science 3) not being seen by the general medical community.

    I'm striving to be a citizen-scientist.

    My contention is that the tinnitus and hearing loss are due to long term biofilm colonies growing in the body, most probably the sinuses or GI (dental is considered GI) that have migrated via blood vessels to the general area of the vestibular nerve. Since the biofilm colonies consume the human tissues in the general vicinity, I contend that these biofilm colonies are the cause of the tinnitus/hearing loss, either through consuming the tissue or by releasing the metabolic byproducts, which are neurotoxins, in the vicinity of the vestibular nerve.

    Connection to MM: Without tinnitus/hearing loss, you don't have MM.

    Strangely enough, IMHO, the vertigo may be at least partially gut related. I wasn't expecting that and at this point it's just a WAG (Wild-Ass Guess), but using myself as a lab rat, that appears to be the case.
     
  15. PapaJoe

    PapaJoe Member

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    Here is a picture of a bacterial biofilm. This one is very large. The ones I have are smaller, in my face, and unless you get a skin eruption, invisible. I have a quarter sized abscess on my face right now, less than an inch from my left ear (my MM ear).

    But what about the immune system? The biofilm colonies are immune to the immune system. A biofilm colony might contain individual germs, fungi, and viruses, all at the same time. Each of those would trigger a big immune response if they were free-living (planktonic) cells.

    But when these microbes are encapsulated in a biofilm colony, the biofilm substance (called EPS) hides the microbes, and as far as the immune system is concerned, they don't exist. But they still produce neurotoxins (endotoxins, mycotoxins) which do what they do: damage nerves.

    [​IMG]

    The yellowish substance is the EPS matrix which forms and protects biofilm colony. If you were to cut it out and try to culture it, it probably wouldn't culture. But if you ran a PCR DNA analysis, you'd find out exactly what organisms were involved.
    The speckled reddish areas are skin, but the circles/dots in it are where the biofilms have migrated via blood vessels and capillaries. Long story short, the 'mother colony' is growing and migrating.
    Imagine if something like that were living an inch from your ear.


    [​IMG]

    You could pour concentrated antibiotics on the yellow stuff, and it wouldn't significantly harm the biofilm. You can douse it with alcohol, and it won't significantly harm the biofilm. Clorox will work though.

    When you hear about infections in replacement joints? Biofilm.
    When you hear about nosocomial infections (infection caught while in the hospital)? Biofilm.
    Chronic sinus infections? Biofilm.

    MM? Biofilm?

    Most doctors are taught that there are no biofilm diseases, and that you must be crazy if you even suggest it. Medical practice is at least 30 years behind the science.

    The bacterial biofilm I have on the left side of my face is about the size of a quarter (25 cent piece for non-USA) and is about an inch from my ear.

    Please keep asking questions. I want to make this as comprehensive and bulletproof as I can. If anyone has questions about the science, I'll point you to relevant PubMed research. PubMed is the NIH clearinghouse of worldwide peer-reviewed scientific research.

    ETA: Spelling
     

    Attached Files:

  16. PapaJoe

    PapaJoe Member

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    There isn't much research on biofilms for MM, but here is some thing that suggest biofilms might be implicated.

    Otitis Media, infection of the middle ear. The amount of biofilms is related to the severity of the OM symptoms.

    The Continuum of Biofilms in Different Types of Otitis Media
    "The frequency of biofilms suggests that the presence of biofilms is associated with the severity of OM."

    Device spots bacteria in ear
    "Studies have found that patients who suffer from chronic ear infections may have a film of bacteria or other microorganisms that builds up behind the eardrum, very similar to dental plaque on unbrushed teeth. Finding and monitoring these so-called biofilms are important for successfully identifying and treating chronic ear infections."

    Biofilm basics: Section 3 - Center for Biofilm Engineering | Montana State University
    "Biofilms are implicated in otitis media, the most common acute ear infection in children in the U.S. Other diseases in which biofilms play a role include bacterial endocarditis (infection of the inner surface of the heart and its valves), cystic fibrosis (a chronic disorder resulting in increased susceptibility to serious lung infection), and Legionnaire's disease (an acute respiratory infection resulting from the aspiration of clumps of Legionnella biofilms detached from air and water heating/cooling and distribution systems)."

    Washington University of St Louis (WUSTL) is one of the world's great research institutes, they work on cutting edge research on the human microbiome.

    Richard Chole
    Dr. Chole's clinical interests include otology, neurotology, reconstruction of the middle ear, petrous apicitis, otosclerosis, cholesteatoma, Meniere's disease, cochlear implants and bone anchored hearing aids. His research interests include the role of bacterial biofilms in otolaryngologic disease and bone remodeling in cholesteatoma.
     
  17. PapaJoe

    PapaJoe Member

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    Here an intersting study:

    A new animal model for Ménière's disease.
    "All experimental animals showed mild to moderate endolymphatic hydrops. Those treated with both LPS and aldosterone showed reversible vestibular dysfunction after the intratympanic injection of epinephrine."

    This study took place at Department of Otolaryngology, Hiroshima University Faculty of Medicine, Hiroshima, Japan. Bolding is mine.

    They took mice and injected either LPS or aldosterone, or both, into mice. The LPS is injected into the ear, and the aldosterone is injected into the belly.

    Mice injected with either one of the substances had some amount of endolymphatic hydrops. Those treated with both showed "reversible vestibular dysfunction"

    Why is this interesting? If you'll check the first post above, you'll notice that I think one of the causes of MM might be biofilm, and that the toxins secreted are Endotoxin and Mycotoxin.

    Guess what LPS is?

    LPS = Lipopolysaccharide = Endotoxin = Lipopolysaccharide - Wikipedia

    So, here is a study specifically for MM that links the toxins produced by biofilm colony infections with hydrops and vestibular dysfunction. In fact, they can seemingly make it happen and reverse it with IT epinephrin.

    ETA: Add comment about epinephrin.
     
  18. PapaJoe

    PapaJoe Member

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    More LPS

    LPS is a known neurotoxin. It is also is one of the few things that your body, when you're born, come pre-prepared to fight. You're born to fight LPS (and mycotoxin)

    There are these special cells, Toll-Like Receptors that we get when we're born, they're part of our innate immune system. One of them triggers the immune system when it encounters LPS proteins. Another one triggers the immune system when it encounters mycotoxins. And immune system activation == inflammation.

    LPS proteins are are part of the cell wall of gram-negative and some gram-positive bacteria. They are used for chemical communications whenever a bacteria is living in a biofilm colony. So, LPS proteins are ejected by the bacteria, enter the blood stream, eventually encounter a TLR4, and you've got general inflammation wherever that happens.

    Response of the inner ear to lipopolysaccharide introduced directly into scala media.
    The University of Sydney, Meniere's Research Laboratory, Australia.
    "Moreover, LPS injections into perilymph failed to induce hydrops, yet still resulted in cellular infiltration and fibrosis in the cochlea. This suggests that chronic hydrops resulting from an immune challenge of the cochlea may not be due to blockage of the endolymphatic duct and sac, restricting fluid absorption. Furthermore, injecting antigen into endolymph may produce chronic immune-mediated hydrops, and provide a more promising animal model of Meniere's, although animals did not display signs of vestibular dysfunction, and the hearing loss was relatively severe."

    While this study failed to produce vestibular dysfunction with LPS alone, it still resulted in cochlear damage. As the previous study indicated, the vestibular dysfunction happened only when treated with LPS and another substance. It's also an indication that scientists are beginning to look at biofilm infections as a cause of MM.
     
  19. PapaJoe

    PapaJoe Member

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    Here are a couple of the the bacterial biofilm colonies that lives in/on/around my face. One of them is approximately 1" away from the entrance to my ear canal. Biofilm colonies migrate. LPS in the ear can cause vestibular dysfunction...
     

    Attached Files:

  20. PapaJoe

    PapaJoe Member

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    Cytomegalovirus (CMV) is one virus that indicated for hearing loss. This study says that if you inject CMV virus into the abdomen of mice, you probably won't have hearing loss.

    But if you also inject LPS (aka Endotoxin) from bacterial biofilms into the brain, the combination of the CMV and the LPS creates labyrinthitis. So, the virus by itself: no hearing loss. Virus + LPS: hearing loss

    Induction of cytomegalovirus-infected labyrinthitis in newborn mice by lipopolysaccharide: a model for hearing loss in congenital CMV infection.
    Department of Pathology, Hamamatsu University School of Medicine, Hamamatsu, Japan.
    Congenital cytomegalovirus (CMV) infection is the most common infectious cause of sensorineural hearing loss in children. Here, we established an experimental model of hearing loss after systemic infection with murine CMV (MCMV) in newborn mice. Although almost no viral infection was observed in the inner ears and brains by intraperitoneal (i.p.) infection with MCMV in newborn mice, infection in these regions was induced in combination with intracerebral (i.c.) injection of bacterial lipopolysaccharide (LPS).
     

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